to not allow ds2 to have mmr jab?

[TheLadyEvenstar]

I don't think I am, after ds1 had it i noticed a major difference in his behaviour and don't want to go through it again,

electra I am well aware of the criteria.

for example lining up objects persistantly may be classed as a schema at 15mths but at 3yrs is clearly not normal behaviour.
Not having much speech at 18mths in its self is not indicative of Autism, but with other behaviours would give concern.
Lack of eye contact, hand gesturing etc as well as loss of/lack of development of speech and lining up at age 3 would give concern.

I had measles aged 5, remember darkened room, kept in bed 5 days, not much else. Am old enough to be pre-vaccine - also to be vaccinated for smallpox

Not so for my younger sister - healthy beautiful baby contracted measles at three months, severe brain damage, now cared for by Christian charity home as elderly mother can no longer cope. And in the places we sought education for her we saw lots of autism - NOTHING compared to what we still go through as a family, NOTHING compared to what my parents went through.

So did I vaccinate my 8 year old dd? You betcha, and agonised whilst she was in nursery until the second booster while others dithered. Just as well as it turns out have been living in outbreak areas.

It's a no-brainer...

with regard to the 'loners' issue. Children under 18mths do not tend to make up games with other children, they play along side each other. By 2 you would expect some imaginative play and dialogue between them. By 3 actively seeking out people to play with. Children who didn't play with others/lacking social skills were not thought to be abnormal. This is typical of Aspergers (I should know as 3 of ex DH cousins have it in the same family).

We're not talking about Aspergers.

There is a difference between a child with Aspergers and a child who loses all speech and becomes profoundly autistic.

one minute there they are playing peekaboo and naming.

Then
Oh whoops suddenly they can no longer make the same sounds (let alone words that they could.).I have video of my son at 11 or 12 months with a snake saying 'sssss ssss sssss'. Now aged 9 he cannot produce a sssss sound. He just blows his lips together when he tries. SSSS had gone by the time he was 15 months. Likewise I have video of him in the bath with ducks 'qua qua qua'. Now aged 9 he cannot say qua qua qua he says 'a'.

The paediatrician called that regression.

prairie girl - autism is a huge spectrum. My son will never live independently, will almost certainly never talk, will require 24 hour care for the rest of his life.

mytether can you please stop quoting from the ABC guide to autism. My son has never lined a thing up in his life and can have very good eye contact. Your lists of 'this is autism' show that you know bugger all about severe autism.

Well if you are very aware of the criteria then I don't understand how you can be so insensitive. Autism is a severe disability and differs a lot from AS, although the problems a person with AS would have would be as problematic for them but in a different way. My daughter has autism and I would say that she is severely disabled and she has very complex educational needs. Having a child with needs as complex as hers has a considerable impact on our family.

BTW there's no point sending me to the literature for severe autism. It is not represented in the literature. I've just done a review- Over the last 12 years I managed to identify 37 papers and one book chapter (few more books but I excluded books) on autism as severe as my son has it. Out of thousands and thousands and thousands of paper. These papers in the main were in education journals. This group is not represented in the literature. They're not there.

And the reason its not represented? Because you can't do cognitive testing with this group. Because they are untestable. Too severely disabled.

And I'm not sure why you linked to that paper. The incidence has increased in part because of a widening of the diagnostic criteria.

However, as no-one is suggesting that MMR has led to an increase in the rate of autism I'm not sure what the point of your link is.

Wakefield has made it clear he is talking about a small group. It's not a size that is going to make much difference to the rate.

jimjam...I am not doubting you btw...just a bit shocked about that low representation in literature...surely they should be able to establish some sort of testing critiria? Maybe by sort of eliminating skilss, or somehting...not that I know these things...but there should be some sort of, well, measure, established...
it's quite sad...not because I believe a test or diagnosis necessary would change anything...but because it would give a better understanding, iykwim...oh, I hope you do know wat I mean....

Obviously I can't give all criteria because all children/adults with Autism are along a spectrum from the most severely disabled to the spectrum disorders. It is individual in each case. I do know plenty and have worked in the area as a student from 1997. The individuals where I did placements were the most severely affected by it, but I also have friends with Autistic children (one from contracting meningitis at 2yo) another who is 2yo (nearly 3). I am not trivialising Autism as you seem to think, merely pointing out that many of the characteristics associated with Autism only become apparent after they have the MMR, yet they may well have surfaced even if single vaccines/no vaccine had been given. Its coincidental that concerns arise at the age where the behaviours are no longer normal for the age of the child which corresponds to the age just after MMR.

But because they're not in the literature, it's not even realised they're not there.

I went to a talk where someone (big name) talked about her work with some individuals who were severely autistic. I asked her what the verbal IQ scores were of the severe group. She said something like 10!!!! (in adults).

That is not the group I am working with, that is not the group my son belongs to, that is often (not always) not the group that Wakefield is talking about. A

My son is 9 years old. His receptive language is at about an 18 months level. His expressive language is at a 12 month level.

You cannot do cognitive testing with this group. So they get ignored.

Most people think they are to vegetable like to do anything interesting anyway.

So mytether how do you explain the child who lost speech at 4.

Or the one who had his one and only massive seizures of his life 24 hours after the MMR, ended up in HDU and lost all speech he had from that day forward.

Are these parents (and doctors in the case of the child with seizures) imagining it?

'However, as no-one is suggesting that MMR has led to an increase in the rate of autism I'm not sure what the point of your link is.'
Err yes, thats exactly what has been suggested. That was the OPs point! She saw a marked behaviour difference in her ds1 after MMR and fears that it will do the same for dc2.
Perhaps she should consider single vaccines because if there is a genetic link it may happen again, however, from a behaviour perspective there is no evidence that MMR causes behavioural changes or Autism.

But they kind of test young children 18 month and even younger..which criteria are they using for that agegroup...could that not be applied and then related to a "norm range"...and I know that is kind of subjective, too....

surely there has o be something out there that could be used,if not it has to be develloped...because well...how else will it all ever be properly understood...
it is just very sad that this is allowed to happen.

NO that is not what anyone has suggested.

Wakefield et al suggest that a small subset of children have regressed following MMR. This is not remotely the same as suggesting that MMR has led to the increase in autism., or that MMR isn't safe for the majority of children. Unfortunately academics have repeatedly failed to test Wakefield's hypothesis, preferring instead to show that MMR is safe for most .

What happens to one individual has nothing to do with what happens to the autism rate.

Mytether - you are not giving parents who KNOW their child has regressed any credit for understanding their child better than anybody and knowing when something has happened to change the course of their child's development. To be honest I find your dismissive attitude very offensive. Whenever I have heard of a regression which follows illness or vaccination - the parent describes a spectacular loss of skills, as pagwatch has done - which you appear to ignore -- who are you to be so patronising?

It has been suggested by the same person who suggested a link between Autism and MMR that the MMR itself is not the cause, more a catalogue of immune compromise.
i.e. mother drinks/drugs/ingests food containing chemicals such as mercury, gets salmonella while the fetus is developing. Newborn is immune compromised then has first sets of vaccinations and the system struggles to cope, next comes the MMR which topples the immune system over the edge and it shuts down. Add to this lots of infections such as gastro-enteritis, ear infections and this could be the point at which collapse happens- in your friends case 4yo. Like a tower that has had to much built on top of it and topples under the strain. i.e it isn't the 1 brick that causes collapse, but the last one. How early this happens depends on how badly compromised a childs immunity is at birth and also taking into account genetic predisposition/family history.

It is really hard to do christmas. And research funding is driven by previous research so if there isn't any out there it's hard.

I am finding it very difficult to get my research published in the autism literature because it's hard to place within the current literature. To the point where the next paper I produce will be sent to the non-autism literature.

I am working with someone working with ds1. - So she works a lot with the severely affected. She said she gave up trying to publish in the autism literature because no-one was interested, and took to writing books instead.

Having said all that, there was one very excellent paper published last year that did look directly at severe autism- but I know how long it took to get published (long long time).

It's an uphill struggle because most people don't even know this group is out there.

I stood in an international autism conference and heard a researcher say 'did you know there are some children with autism who can't speak? I didn't know that'. A researcher.

Er yes mytether, that is one of the models. So miss out the final brick and hey ho you have a child who doesn't regress.

Rather like PKU. Shall we just say 'oh dear you're fucked matey better watch out for those learning difficulties?' or shall we say 'hey avoid phenylalanine and you'll be fine'

a researcher said that...thst is really sad...I mean I am not an expert in this field at all, but I know this is possible...and tbh, it has been mentioned during several of the modules within my course already, and I am only through the first term of the first year in OT....hmm...wondering if maybe going down the ot route and occupational science it would be possible to publish this kind of research....like I said for me to early to grasp it all...but in the long term possibly sonmething to look into...and I know several fellow students already working with autistic individuals that want to go that way and therefore think of this as a dissertaion....that might be a way...however...I might be very naive here...and accept that, too....am slightly overwhelmed and brainmushed with it all....

I'd rather not watchout for those than watch out for measles, mumps and rubella as the chances of developing Autism through MMR are significantly lower than contracting one or all of those diseases, which without being vaccinated are life threatening. I would rather have my child alive thanks

oooh are you doing OT???

Look up Floortime!!! It is a wonderful wonderful intevention with a big OT component. If you are anywhere near me (Devon) you are welcome to come and practice on ds1. He desperately needs some OT.

aww..shall keep you in mind...who knows...like I said only first time of firt year...so, still pretty clueless, but trying to learn and understand...actually understand being the important component...

am in northants...but our uni has a ot professor who is brill....and wonder if it would be worth picking her brains...because ignored....it just is not an option...

but tbh, personally am right now struggling to produce a little manual handling leaflet....which is pathetic...sigh...