to not allow ds2 to have mmr jab?

[TheLadyEvenstar]

I don't think I am, after ds1 had it i noticed a major difference in his behaviour and don't want to go through it again,

Re savings for NHS - how about getting rid of a lot of ineffectual management and considering whether quite so much consultancy, brand changes etc etc are necessary. If Mumps single vaccines are more effective than combined, there could be potential savings in fertility treatment for males ergo couples. By the way, I am a nurse.

Marla - you can trust motives. Public health and individual health always have some sort of potential to clash. Something that is in the best interests of public health isn't necessarily in the best interests of a particular individual.

Personally I think this idea should be embraced by medics and work conducted on trying to identify individuals who are at particular risk and need a different vaccination schedule. It's why I think single options should be available for all jabs (not just MMR) - I want my children protected from tetanus, I don't want them having the pertussis jab, that is very hard to do before the age of 10).

I think this would rebuild public confidence in vaccination, and would probably save some families a lot of heartache. I think medics could do this (they do generally have the best interests of their patients at heart). I'm not sure politicans could.

What I find really bizarre is that you cannot now get single diptheria and polio without tetanus. My dh is allergic to tetanus vaccination and when we went to South Africa last year were advised to make sure the polio/dipth/tet was up to date. I have always kept mine up to date (leftover sensibilities from being travelling RAF brat) but dh cannot now have dipth or polio as there are no singles available. That is bonkers.

I trust fellow mums who are sure and certain that their children have been permanently damaged by MMR.

Sorry, but nobody is convincing me that intelligent, articulate, and well-informed parents like jimjam and pagwatch are suffering from a mass delusion (that MMR is responsible for their DC's condition) because they just need to blame someone

And if it happened to them, why not to me & my DC? If there was research that identified the vulnerable children, I would be happy to go ahead with MMR, given my DC were not in that group. But I can't, because government would rather spend the millions of pounds on marketing the MMR.

You can do it though. Have a look at your family history. Richard Halvorsen will do it with you as well (I know people who have been and talked it all through with him).

IN our case family history is riddled with no autism, but lots of autoimmune conditions. So we're careful with jabs.

I can't, jimjam, because we know nothing about the medical histories of anyone on DH's side of the family. And my side of the family has little in the way of medical records, because I am only two generations away from villages with no hospitals in a developing country.

so I wonder if my DS's deteriorating bowels were also just one of those oft noticed symptoms of toddlerhood.

FWIW my sons GP confirmed at approx 20 months that my son could not possibly have autism because had definately had no behavioural issues- or any other probelms nor any delays when he did his developmental check at 18months.

When he was then presented with a clearly very autistic child he went away and came back with ( tah dah ) aggresive regressive autism. A version of autism that also had bowel issues alongside. And which got somewhat better when his diet was changed. But was still autism and nothing to do with the co-incidental jab, the huge hot lump on his leg, the crying. lack of eating and total lack of sleeping.The sudden violence and aggression and dropping of all eye contact. And the fact that he never ever made another words or babble from the day of the jab onward. ( well for two more years anyway) ALL just co-incidence. Oh yes indeedy.

Impressive huh!

Ah, yes that makes it hard. You could read things by, or contact Natasha Campbell McBride. She's a qualified doctor, does a lot on nutrition as well, but she has been talking about the need for pre-vaccination screening for a long time. She said there's already enough information to be able to set up a simple screening programme. I don't know exactly what she includes (although I know she talks about avoiding vaccination during eczema flare ups, and I know she looks for signs of an over-reactive immune system).

Ditto jim ham. No asd whatsoever in our huge family - but lots of auto immune .And neice who had huge seizures whilst still in the DRs after her MMR

Sorry I haven't got to reading all the posts and apologise for repeating what might have been said.
There is no proven evidence that MMR causes Autism and typically signs of Autism start to show at the same age (in line with speech and independent play) as the vaccination is given, however, no positive correlation has been conclusive. Also the spectrum of Autistic diagnosis has broadened as in those children who may have been considered shy, loners or slow are now diagnosed as having ASD/Aspergers etc, whereas 20 yrs ago only the most debilatated children would have been diagnosed.
Measles, Mumps and Rubella are FATAL or can leave children INFERTILE (male mumps), lead to BRAIN DAMAGE and other serious side effects such as loss of limbs etc.
If you don't want the MMR that is your right as a parent, however, if you can't afford/get single vaccinations then you are putting your child at severe risk for something that is unproven, just talked about. There is a far greater risk of your child being severely disabled if they catch these diseases without being vaccinated, than developing Autism.

TBH

My son is gorgeous. I will spend my life caring for him and that is something I gladly choose to do because he is lovely and fun.
But it is hard thatthe boy I knew for the first 18 months just left and never came back. It is like a strange bereavement where I can't grieve because I still have my gorgeous boy. But the one that played with my hair and called me mamma and looked deep into my eyes while I held his hand has gone. My other son lost that boy too. And we all still miss him. The photos are almost unbearable. And that is sad.

But I would be lying if I did not say that it is made all the harder but people who , in their determination to be right about a point which is barely more than academic to them ,quite happily deny my loss and effectively call me a lair or deluded.

That I do find quite difficult.

thanks for that mytether

No you haven't read the thread have you. I suggest you do.

The old chestnut of autism appearing at the same age as the MMR and the thicky parents just not noticing. A regression is not hard to spot. I spotted my son losing word. When I watched videos of him shortly before his regresssion years later I was stunned by how much he could do- I have under, not over estimated his pre-regression abilities.

Doctors have never suggested I was mistaken about my son's regression - because it occurred after a viral infection. I don't see why I would suddenly become an unreliable witness had it occurred after the MMR.

I have met people whose children lost all speech aged 4. Were they just fooling themselves that their child was speaking all those years beforehand?

Mumps doesn't leave children infertile. It very very very rarely leaves adults infertile. Measles can be fatal, but it is rarely fatal in a healthy well-fed western child. It is more dangerous in other groups. Particularly in groups that haven't been exposed to measles before, where it can be devastating. Or children with poor vitamin A consumption. Rubella is a mild illness, except in unborn babies. There are other ways to ensure women of childbearing age are protected than vaccinating every baby in the land (for example vaccinate teenage girls and educate women ttc about the importance of testing rubella immunity before they do- I did).

Not all children have the same risk as autism. DS2 and DS3's risk of autism is 100 greater than your child's.

Not yours pagwatch- unfortunately your dd shares the same 100 times greater risk as ds2 and ds3.

pagwatch I am for the loss of the boy you had, but unfortunately this is a common pattern with Autism (even before MMR) Tests for development also started around this time, more frequently and in more depth, which is another reason that children are diagnosed so early. Before it may only have been diagnosed at school. Many were never officially diagnosed, especially those with ASD/Aspergers because of their typical lack of impairment in daily function such as mobility, intelligence (Aspergers) etc.

There is a suggestion that those people who have the potential to be immuno compromised may be genetically more at risk of having a negative reaction to vaccinations on the whole. The small dose of live vaccine can't be handled by the white blood cells leading to inflammation of the brain through infection/fluid build up. In circumstances like family history of rheumatoid arthritis or lupus I would go with single vaccines. If your child has had serious bowel problems likewise, as it was found that 25% of diagnosed Autistic children had bowel complaints before MMR.

mytether - you are talking absolute bollocks. Sorry, blunt but you are.

Diagnoses come years after regressions. My son regressed beween 12 and 15 months. I suspected autism from 17 months. He was diagnosed age 3.

What about the 4 year old who lost all speech?

What about the child I know who had massive seizures ended up in HDU and lost all speech from that day forward. The child whose paed says he supsects MMR.

We're not talking Aspergers here. Aspergers still isn't diagnosed until school age. Very rarely before.

And why would the paediatrician agree with me that my son had obviously regressed after a virus (which went into his diagnosis letter) if it was a case of we're all too stupid to notice our children were autistic beforehand.

"Cote - that is how I feel - how can I ignore these intelligent women's experiences?".

Completely agree.

There are many parents to kids with ASD and related communication disorders who do not attribute it to MMR. It's not some sort of bandwagon for deluded mothers to jump on. Posters such as Pagwatch and Jimjams are intelligent women with integrity - why should I not give them the courtesy of believing them as to the cause of their child's regression.

agree with jimjams re:diagnosis. In this country diagnoses do not often happen before a child is 3.

Yes ds3 has exactly the same bowel complaint as ds1. Which is why he hasn't been vaccinated at all or dosed up to the eyeballs with antibiotics for ear infections. And we have a family history of type 1 diabetes (lots of that), MS and various other allergic/autoimmune conditions.

Oh fgs mytether - you clearly know nothing about autism if you think it equates to people described as 'loners' or 'slow'. It's a complex disorder which has a very specific diagnostic criteria.

jj, if you read the discussion in this research you will see it isn't bollock.

www.ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/reprint/162/6/1133