to want to post on the "For my husband to earn £65,000 per annum and we still can't afford to live"..... thread because it's full???

[chockywocky]

i cant believe its full and and havent had my say.....

spotty, we were trying to say working women have a vast array of things in their lives. If I lost my job I'd have the chidlren and in due course grandchildren and all the hobbies etc. Just because you work doesn't mean you don't have other things in your life. Instead it means you have more.

The post above about teh things you get from work other than intellectual challenge if good too. If I were a stay at home mother to my children's father (a teacher) I would not have been in Iran last week (on business). We would not have been able to afford for me to be there. I would not have enjoying writing the books that I have or been asked to do quite a lot of non work things but which arise from work. I suspect I might not look as good too as I would be fed up being only a mother and would probably eat junk food, get fat and not have that obligation to dress well which goes with some types of work nor the confidence you get from earning your own money nor the enjoyment of an element of power.

Most mothers choose to work and have children and most manage a reasonable balance.

It/s not true to say I haven't had time at home with children. I bet in 24 years with 5 children if you tot up the hours I have spent it amounts to the same as any full time mother of 1 who has a child of say 4. I will have spent longer not less time with children than those mothers simply because of the years and time. Babies are huge fun but not 24/7 all day long.

to be honest I wasn't intellectually stimulated at home as I had no idea what to do...how rubbish is that?
I mostly shuffled around aimlessly worrying!

I work in a really shallow industry that isn't exactly rocket science but I thrive there. I'm not making a difference to the planet at work but in my case I certainly wasn't at home.

I think that many people aren't stimulated intellectually no matter where they are and are perfectly happy with that. I think it can be overrated. Happiness doesn't necessarily come hand in hand with brain excercise. Some entirely mind numbing tasks hold great satisfaction for me.

I'm happy you're happy at home as I'm sure you are happy for me at work.

Xenia, how can you know whether working or staying at home is more interesting. My understnading (from your other posts) was that you had only had 2 weeks off after having your daughter?

Don't judge what you haven;t even tried.

I have worked for years and had a good career (also in law) and I know which I find more rewarding.

Can you not just accept that not every woman needs work to make her happy some are lucky enough to get that from their families alone.

As to reliance on a man. I earned more than DH until having kids and I could pick up my career again whenever I wanted so that doesn't really apply.

OK bags - but is anyone else, apart from Xenia, actually saying that? Because I can't see it!!

I haven't insulted anyone at all on this thread - as I've said countless times, it's about choice, and making decisions which we believe at the time are in the interests of the WHOLE family, and within the constraints of our own individual circumstances.

However, to have access to that choice, which we all agree is so important, it DOES make sense to put ourselves and our children in a position to have good earning capacity, through getting good skills and qualifications, as earning power does give access to choice. That's the way of the world. How many of us are born into money? How many of us still have elderly parents supporting us well into adulthood? Not many. And neither should we want or expect that.

It's just a bit tiresome that those of us who write perfectly reasoned posts then get pathetic responses from the likes of spottyzebra, asking how I will cope when I retire. Very nicely thanks!

i feel really fortunate that i was able to stay at home while dc's were very young, i wanted to be the one they ran to when they fell over, i wanted to be there for the good bits and the boring bits...that's motherhood, if things go wrong.....well, the buck stops with me....their mother.

ready2pop - I think Xenia is an extreme example though. the vast majority of women have far more than a fortnight off work! I had maternity leaves at home full time, plus I worked part time for a while when my kids were small, as did my DH for a while. And I have also taken some extended periods of leave. So it's silly to say that WOHP don't have any idea what it's like to look after children at home - we do!

I agree with River on educating the children so they get a choice - which is why I home educated my kids but I'm guessing we might be differing on our opinion of paper qualifications
But what Xenia says about working mums having 'more' suggests she thinks sah do nothing but bake cookies and make playdough. I've met poeple from all over the world, I do interetsing things as a home educator and I do stuff that isn't in the home. Its just not paid work. Being a sah doesn't confine one to the house.
I'm glad I'm not stuck in an office doing the same old thing every day. That would bore me rigid while others find it stimulating.
Some people are being insulting and once again its WOh insulting sah. Why is that?
Personally I think some poeple resent the freedom of being your own boss and never having to wear some stuffy suit.

How did this turn into another slating SAHM thread?

Saw this in the paper yesterday and thought of MN

(apologies if it has already been linked to - I skimmed but couldn't find it. I just thought it would add another dimension to the discussion)

I thought it was very fair. Neither side got a pasting imo.

Findmeariver - of course it is a choice. Unfortunately, you fail to take that to its logical conclusion and allow some of us to chose to stay at home. Most of us, by and large, have not got pregnant at 16 and never worked. Most of us have had our jobs/careers/professions before and sometimes after having children and now we have chosen to stay at home.

We can go back to it later if we want to - it is not a choice for life, it is a choice for the time being. Most of us will work again when we are ready and have the 'aha' moment as mentioned in the article. In the meantime we have had a few years at home - so what?

Xenia said 'I suspect I might not look as good too as I would be fed up being only a mother and would probably eat junk food, get fat and not have that obligation to dress well which goes with some types of work nor the confidence you get from earning your own money nor the enjoyment of an element of power.'

findtheriver - I know Xenia is a total extreme and you will see my comment was addressed solely to her for that reason. I have no problem with anyone else at all.

The criticisms of Xenia started because she was so dismissive about SAHMs. I was just defending myself.

I don't think it is better to stay at home or to work. It is just a personal choice and we should each do what works best for us. Xenia, on the other hand was saying, amongst other things that:

1. women who stayed at home were failing womenkind and putting us at risk of a return to the days when women could not work.
2. women who stayed at home were failing their daughters;
3. by staying at home we were getting dumber by the day;
4. SAHMs would find themselves all alone drinking gin by the time they were 65...

etc,etc,etc,etc......

Each to their own is all I am saying.

River - I went to uni first and got all those qualifications. Then I chose to stay at home. Am going back into education shorlty and toying with the job idea as I've been offered one. Don't know if it will fit with dd's needs though so haven't said yes.

point number 3 is interesting. FIL just retired and is all alone drinking something. Its not just a fate for SAH mums you know

Rubbish needmorecoffee - it is not simply WOHM insulting SAHM!!

Look at your last post - for a start there's a slightly snidy remark about assuming that 'we might be differing on our opinion of paper qualifications '. Not sure exactly what you mean by that - I certainly think education is a lot broader than paper qualifications, but that they have their place and are essential in opening some doors.

Secondly, you imply that office work is boring and repetitive. Why? I work in my office for some of the time (as well as travelling, working with other people, visiting schools and other institutions as part of my role). What I do in my office isn't boring or repetitive thanks.

At the end of the day, you made a decision which suited your needs and your kids'. (And you were fortunate to have the choice to home educate as families where both parents have to work wouldnt have that choice available). But it doesnt make anyone else's choice not to home educate, or to go to work, any less valid.

am I missing the point?

I thought feminism was the ability to choose

'Findmeariver - of course it is a choice. Unfortunately, you fail to take that to its logical conclusion and allow some of us to chose to stay at home. '

FGS this is getting tedious now. Please read the thread before you post rubbish. WHERE ON THIS THREAD HAVE I SAID THAT WOMEN (OR INDEED MEN) ARE NOT ALLOWED TO STAY AT HOME??????

I said I would find working in an office boring, not that others wouldn't.
I have an unusual view on education I think and qualifications which is what I meant by that. I would find taking A levels an equal and valid choice as leaving school at 14 and living in a yurt. Most people can't get their head round it.
No snidiness at all.

'(And you were fortunate to have the choice to home educate as families where both parents have to work wouldnt have that choice available).'

We made massive sacrifices to do so in this 2-income world. Its why we can't afford to run a car or ever go on holiday and why we can't heat the house. I think most people could make the same choice but they'd have to give up the same things. I wasn't planning to home educate. I got number 3 into school and started a univerity course. Number 2 was so unhappy I didn't have a real choice about home education so I gave up the university.

I don't have a problem with anyone apart from Xenia. findtheriver, your posts are completely reasonable and not personal and interesting to read. Xenia, on the other hand, is not interesting to read on account of the utterly ludicrous and cliche-ridden views she holds.

I know some people think she's sweet really but I don't. She is the worst example of arrogance mixed with ignorance I have ever come across, including several people I have had the misfortune to sit next to at boring dinner parties. And I find it offensive and appalling that she considers herself a role model for women on this forum. She is perfectly entitled to her views, as are we all. I think I need to take a leaf out of policywonk's book and never read her posts.

My brain has died here...why is it better for women to drop a sprog, then rush off back into a male dominated environment to do well paid bullshit and pay some other woman far less than you earn to look after her child practically 24x7?

This supposes that women (or anyone?)should only bring up children for money, and that caring for someone because you love them is wrong??!!!!

Eh?!

I work in a male dominated environment doing well paid bullshit BTW...but I'm school hours working so I do get to see my own child after school...I'll pay myself wages for all those hours with DC from now on though, then it'll be ok.

no-one has commented on the fact that there are no advisors or training courses to help those sah who would like to go back to outisde work.
Surely thats a sexist thing as its generally women?

well put miggsie!

Well said miggsie!

nmc, you're right, it sounds shite.

I am just at the suggestion that most people could give up their car and holidays and heating and therefore afford to home educate. Err.... nope. Many, many couple could give up all those things and could still not afford the luxury of a parent at home full time.

I like what miggsie said
If you are paid to look after kids its a career. If they are your own, its letting down womankind dontcha know.

river
"It's just a bit tiresome that those of us who write perfectly reasoned posts then get pathetic responses from the likes of spottyzebra, asking how I will cope when I retire. Very nicely thanks! "

that's pretty rude isn't it?.

it was a geniune question about how you would cope if you where too ill to work or get made redundent or when you retire.

just out of interest are you financially dependent on two incomes?