to want to post on the "For my husband to earn £65,000 per annum and we still can't afford to live"..... thread because it's full???

[chockywocky]

i cant believe its full and and havent had my say.....

Cote, you are being pretty nasty. No idea why except you must have ishoos. Watching how children learn concepts was intellectually stimulating to me because I was a psychologist. My research was in learning and brain development.
There's whol departments of phD's watching how small children elarn and develop you know!
I still got adult intellectual conversation from meeting friends too - and this was pre-internet. We had real friends back then
With dd2 I have spent years researching brain damage and learning, intractable epilepsy and applied those techniques to her to help stimulate her learning - most brain decelopment in small children takes place via physical motion but trying to adapt that type of learning for a visually impaired quadraplegic has been a real challenge.
Don't talk to me about stimulation!!!
If you find small children boring then say so rather than making snide comments at those of us who do. I expect whatever job it is you do would have some of us bored rigid and asking where you got you stimulation from. But that would be rude.

I found parts of it intellectually stimulating as I like to learn, so as my dd grew up I studied child psychology and development and loved to watch it happen in front of me.

As a teacher my approach to my job was transformed by being a parent, another intellectual challenge.

I also did volunatary work that required training.

I wonder what you types who think intellectual stimulation only coems from work are going to do when you retire. Don't you read?

Yes I read a newspaper everyday as a SAHM I rarely do that now, devoured books and met people I would never have met. Joined a book group too.

I do voluntary work with disabled poeple too. Now that is intellectually stimulating. You learn so much and constantly about people.

teachers wouldn't say their job lacked intellectual stimulation either. Or is it the 'being paid' that provides stimulation?

cote, please try to understand this: you made assumptions about my intellectual capacity when you stated that I was killing my brain by staying at home with my children.

If you're going to dish out this insulting bilge, you're really in no position to behave like a maiden aunt when someone dishes it back to you.

And yes, my day-to-day life is a riotous fiesta of intellectual activity from sun-up to sun-down. Why wouldn't it be? I'm not quarantined with no access to the outside world - I'm just looking after some kids.

My mother was one of the most intelligent people I've ever met - really, mind like a razor - and she absolutely loved being at home with us as pre-schoolers. Like nmc, she had an interest in child development and she thought that young children were absolutely fascinating.

Bloody ridiculous to suggest that a career, in the work sense, is the only means to intellectual fulfillment. If you were bored when not working then perhaps it was a deficit of imagination that was the cause.

maybe reading would be a good hobby to take up

But working parents have it all ways so it's more interesting. I think interest is variety and what I've liked about my family life and career is having all that time with the five chidlren but also all that time working too. It's a lovely combination. I don't think if I had just been home for 25 years I would have found it so interesting. I like the adrenalin of work/deals/challenges in work things combined with sitting looking at the face of a child, listening to its answers. Working parents in my view have more in their lives because they have both elements which is why most men want and get work and home and sadly many women are denied that ideal combination.

Many women are bored at home simply because most of the day if you ahve under 5s is a bit like being a domestic servant. I've done it plenty over the years. You're scraping up sick, you're changing clothes of three under 5s you've only just changed, you're clearing food out of your hair, etc etc... we all know what it's like. yes there are lovely moments when they are breastfeeding against you looking up into your eyes (and working mothers have those moments too, lucky us) but a lot of the time it's like being a servant.

policywonk - I wasn't talking generally and not about you, personally. It was not an invitation for petty personal attacks.

thats just your opinion Xenia. I have an amazing variety and combination of stuff to do and can also fit in me-time.
And I think its a privilage to be caring for dd who will require 24 hour care for ever.
I've never seen it as being a 'servant'
I honestly don't think you'll ever understand but then I'm honest enough to say I will never understand why you find law inteersting.
We're all different.

So, it's OK to make grossly insulting generalisations? And still consider yourself immune from comebacks?

So, if I were to post, say, that all WOHMs in France are intellectually underpowered, I could confidently expect you to swallow it with no anger, could I?

No, of course not.

tfm
"Bloody ridiculous to suggest that a career, in the work sense, is the only means to intellectual fulfillment. If you were bored when not working then perhaps it was a deficit of imagination that was the cause."

best ever quote

Why is everyone getting hung up about this idea that paid work is the only source of intellectual stimulation? Course it's not!

I think the whole issue is far wider than that. Intellectual stimulation is one reward of my career, but there are countless other facets - eg the travel/meeting people I get to do (and yes, I know you can travel and meet people when you are not working too, before anyone throws the obvious at me, but I meet people who I wouldnt otherwise come into contact with, and that's great). I also like the team working and management aspects of my job. And yes, the money is nice too, and although I think I would probably still want to have some kind of structured employment even if it wasnt paid, I'm not going to pretend that it's not bloody nice having someone give you a wodge of money for doing your job well. Yes, that is one aspect of feeling valued - not the only one, but important.
I wouldnt say the being paid provides the stimulation, but it's important.

At the end of the day, I think we've also got to be realistic that many of us (and this will apply to our children in turn as they reach adulthood) need to have skills and training to earn a good amount of money - because that is fundamental to having access to the choice that all of us seem to be agreed on as fundamental to fulfilment. I would be extremely concerned, for example, if one of my daughters were to decide to have a baby before getting a training and having a decent earning capacity. Of course, if it happened, I would try to support my daughter to the hilt - but I would far rather she put herself into a position to provide a good standard of living.

There are very few people who are born into money, or have exceptional circumstances where they can guarantee that a spouse/parent/ sugar daddy /whatever will pay their way for them in life. Most of us need (and actually many of us want) to pay our way.

Xenia, you don't 'know'it is more interesting!! You are just assuming because you find it more 'interesting' everyone else would do and, by your own admission, you haven't stayed at home for 25 years, so you can't possibly know what it is like. In the same way that a SAHM doesn't know what it is like to be a WOHM. Stop making such great assumptions.

Not everyone finds being at home like being a domestic servant!!!!! It's not the looking after children that provides the intellectual activity in particular. It's all kinds of things, reading, thinking (yes, you are still able to think when at home with children). As to the breastfeeding looking up into your eyes.... please, SAHMs don't have to justify their existance by using that as an example, that is just basic mothering. No doubt bottle feeding babies gaze up into their mother's eyes too, its what babies do!

The domestic servants who do those distasteful tasks for you Xenia are working women of course. And perhaps even working parents.

Look, I like working. I've recently gone back after my own few years of servile drudgery, which was in fact a period of considerable personal and intellectual fulfillment for me, and have not found my brain to be in any way atrophied. Quite the opposite.

Or working men perhaps...

Agree with you on that post Xenia.

I think a problem is that some (not all!!) SAHP want to believe that WOHP are missing out on some vital ingredient! We don't! I adored playing with my toddlers, just as now my kids are older I love chatting, cooking etc with them. Being a mum is lovely. And my DH says being a dad is too!!

And to those who do the whole emotional 'But I couldnt go out to work because I might miss the first word/step ' - well, I saw two of my children take their first steps (yes, even as a working parents we get to see that too!!). In fact the irony is that while being a SAHM on maternity leave I missed my middle child's first step as I was in the kitchen making coffee while she was being watched in the sitting room by my mate! But as I've seen several hundred thousand steps since, I've lived with that disappointment!

Xenia is right - you don't have to miss out on anything when you are a working parent.

river and xenia,

seriously though how are you going to cope if you ever lose your job or when you retire or become too ill to work?

spotty -Absolutely - I have loads of plans for retirement and hopefully as I have a good (and safe!) pension should be able to do the bits that will cost money!

I've changed jobs before, including total career change, so if I lost my job then I guess I would take a new direction.

I am a bit that you are asking me. Why does enjoying my work mean that I can't enjoy other things?

findtheriver, you are right, missing out on milestones etc isn't the point. The point policywonk in particular, and which I agree with, is the assumption that if you choose not to work (and let's face it, it is a 'choice' for those who don't HAVE to work)outside the home then you are some kind of half witted imbecile. I greatly object to this assumption and there has been nothing in Xenia's posts in particular to make me think that she is particularly more intelligent than anyone else posting here. And I do think, again and again, that she assumes she is, mainly on account of earning a lot of money.

I'm off to read a Hard Book now

Hard book, big pages, small words, no pictures. That's the way to go.