to want to post on the "For my husband to earn £65,000 per annum and we still can't afford to live"..... thread because it's full???

[chockywocky]

i cant believe its full and and havent had my say.....

Xenia, it seems to me that your basic premise is that the choice is career/sahm, whereas a lot of women would like a combination.

A lot of my highly educated friends have returned back to work after 6 months (some earlier) as they didn't want to be penalized on the career front.

While I accept that some decisions have consequences, such as the decision to stay at home means less career prospects, I don't think it should as effectively taking extended maternity leave/flexible working penalizes women.

Here's an example. A friend of mine who has a high powered job told her boss she was pregnant and he then told others that she 'regrettfully' was pregnant. So, this is the attitude that needs to be changed...

We had a joint savings account he empied that. I had a day to day account that he knew the pin number to, he simply took my card and over a period of about a week emptied it.

We also had a joint credit card, I used this when my own cash ran out or wanted a special treat and he would pay it off at the end of the month. I was the priority card holder. In one night he spent a few thousand in bars and restaurants in London and left me with the bill. The credit card company pursued me for the debt to this day I am paying his debts.

TSAP, your story sounds shocking and of course you feel strongly about these issues now. My only point here is that people's individual experiences are just that, and no one - on either side of this debate - can make legitimate blanket condemnations.

My main motivation in working is the fact I love my job, I am also very competitive and ambitious. But I am driven by a desire to provide a good standard of living for my dd which I can mantain on my own. I will never put dd in that situation again, I think anybody can understand that.

ftr, that whole bit about being on the streets was in response to TSAP's post.

No one has to explain to me why they like working. I don't find it mystifying at all - it's not what I've chosen, but I can absolutely understand why other people do it.

I am not making blanket condemnations which is why I said "I would be a failure as a parent if I put dd in the same situation again. "

But I do feel as a feminist that women have a responsibilty to look out for an support each other. If I see a woman in danger of making my mistakes I will say something.

Sorry to be stubborn TSAP but you did say 'I work now and have almost obsessively worked... To do any different... is foolish in my opinion'

I can totally understand where you're coming from twinset - and I think anyone in your situation would feel the same.

Ditto for Xenia - she has lived through an acrimonious and costly divorce which is bound to shape her viewpoint.

We're all a product of our own experiences, and that will colour our views, though of course it makes sense to have a certain degree of objectivity. For example, I agree in principle about the importance of trying to achieve economic independence. Just because I have a happy stable marriage, it doesnt necessarily mean my children will - and I would hate to feel my daughters weren't confident and skilled enough to get out there and have worthwhile and productive jobs. As I said - it's important to me for my kids to see that I can work and be a parent, and that my DH can too.

"I know I am going to come across as a bitter haggered old witch but I will never ever again rely on anyone (male or female so this is not a man hating thing ) to provide security for my dd or I. When he wanted me to leave my rented house and into a home he was buying I insisted my name when on the mortgage to give me equal rights even though I paid nothing in. I work now and have almost obsessively worked to a stage where I could support myself and take over the mortagage. Now that we have moved down south again I am trying to get a further promotion so I can afford to support myself down here if I need to. It is sad that I have to think like that but it is realistic. To do any different in a world where so many relationships/ marriages end in divorce is foolish in my opinion. "

Have posted the whole paragraph rather than a sentence in an attempt to change the meaning.

I have explained how I have been fucked over in the past and then said I now work so I do not have to rely on anyone because I live in a world where so many relationships end in divorce.

In my situation where I only have myself to rely on it would be foolish not to work, what if this dp comes home and says actually I would like you to leave? What if one day ( sa I have recently) I think to myself I don;t want to be in this relationship I will be trapped as I have no independant means. The point of feminism is to allow choice and independance ( and this is not always financial independence but much of it comes back to money)

If you have money that only you have access to that would allow you to keep a roof over your heads and maintain a life style you can live with then you can make your own choices, in my opinion secure in the knowledge that if it goes tits up you are safe.

However if you are in my previous situation you are, in my opinion, beeing foolish and naive. I wish I could go back eight years and give myself a good slap.

But the example of a SAHM doesn't mean that female children grow up to be unconfident, or uncomfortable with the idea of working. As I said below, my mother stayed at home with us when we were pre-schoolers, then went on to retrain and subsequently had an extremely successful career. So I saw both sides growing up.

Just because a woman chooses to stay at home, it doesn't mean that she's not a feminist, or that she'll be telling her female children that domesticity is the only acceptable destiny for them.

This is all a rather literal interpretation of how children model their behaviour, isn't it? My father's father was a coal miner and an amateur boxer - my dad went on to make documentaries for the BBC. My mother's mother was a domestic servant - my mother went on to be a trades union rep, a lecturer and an advice worker.

"Here's an example. A friend of mine who has a high powered job told her boss she was pregnant and he then told others that she 'regrettfully' was pregnant. So, this is the attitude that needs to be changed..."

Sometimes though if you work in the public sector or people are relying on you there is a time when it is regrettable to be pregnant. You don;t catch pregnancy you have to achieve it.

I would love a baby at the moment, infact my constant desire for another child occupies almost every waking moment

BUT

1. My dp and I are not secure enough either finacially or emotionally
2. I have just started a new teaching job and for me to get pregnant when my pupils are settling with me and other members of staff are on maternity leave would be at least regretful.

I wasn't trying to change your meaning, TSAP. I was trying to isolate the part that seemed to me to be a blanket condemnation of other women. If that's a misinterpretation of what you meant, then I'm sorry - but it wasn't terribly clear.

'But the example of a SAHM doesn't mean that female children grow up to be unconfident, or uncomfortable with the idea of working.'

No, of course it doesn't necessarily!

The point is that we all make decisions which we feel are right for our own family, but hopefully being aware that the situations our children grow up into may not be the same as ours. So from that viewpoint it makes sense to prepare them to be flexible and able to cope with whatever situation they may find themself in.

Policy I do not for one moment assume that a feminist would not stay at home.

I was a SAHM for almost five years, for the first year I was not in an emotional or practical position to work so it was not a choice.

The last three and a bit years I was a SAHM but that was a self funded decision, originally in a house that I rented myself and then in a house that although I had not paid for I ensured I was on the mortgage. I also had money that only I had access to and my dp could not touch so if the worst happened I would have a roof over my head. Although being a SAHM I did di little jobs to keep some independence that i could fit around dd.

What I think goes against feminism is to put yourself in a position where you rely on a partner/husband for all of your security that they could take away at any moment.

Having money to which only you have access does NOT protect the higher earner though because on divorce what is left is divided whoever's name it is in. We could have had 100% in my name and a large chunk would still have gone to my ex husband as the lower earner. Also iot's divided in England (not scotland) at date of divorce not separation so if he goes off with 50% say and then gets into debt or gambles it all when the division is done on the financial settlement you take all assets at that point and divide them in most cases (McCartney's wife had a bit taken off her share for excessive post divorce spending but even so the basic point is it's divided at date of divorce not separation.

When I was 20 and getting to know my ex husband we talked about careers, work and child care and we were happy that I would always work and he would give up teaching if he had to to care for the babies if we couldn't find a nanny so I don't think my desire to work has somehow emerged 25 years later in bitterness after a divorce really.

I have had large amounts of pleasure from my work over 25 years, from writing books, last week's trip to Iran and even just the work I've been doing at home today. I have also adored having 5 children. As someone said above most women want both (and so do most men). We want work and children and being a working mother doesn't mean you don't have a relationship with your children.

I actually think { blowing my own trumpet for a moment) that I have been a model of flexibility and feminine strength for my own dd.

1. I have shown her that we all make mistakes but if we work hard both at work and at home we can fix those mistakes.
2. I have battled illness and prejudice to secure a good career, sending the message that you can do whatever you want to do if you are willing to put in the effort.
3. I have been a stay at home parent, I have put in the time with her but also used that time to study and help other women who had similar mistakes to me.
4. I am fiercely independent ( dp says a little too much so but he can totally understand why)
5. As a teacher my dd sees me in term time being the career mum who quite often has to say "not now" or " we will play later" but she knows that in the holidays I am 100% hers ( well maybe 90% )

I hope to God that my dd never faces the same life experiences that I do but I hope that one of the reasons for that maybe that she will learn from my experiences.

Hear hear to your last paragraph xenia.

To me that sums it up. We are not living in the Dark Ages where people didnt bother educating girls because their role was to get married, breed and stay at home, while husband was sole provider.

The fact is, most parents work. It doesnt mean that they don't want to be parents, or that they are in any way less effective as parents. It's about wanting a balance in your life - and that applies to men as much as to women.

Yes Xenia I am talking about women who are not the higher wage earner who in the event of a breakdown need a pot of money to get by while things are being sorted out.

"I stayed home with 3 under 5's. Didn't lose any pbrain cells. You are meant to play with them you know and do stuff!"

Those you use when playing patty cake or watercolors were not exactly the brain cells I was talking about, needmorecoffee.

We are all mothers here, and try as you might, you are not convincing anyone that babies and toddlers make stimulating conversation, nor that changing nappies and playing puzzles is an intellectual pastime comparable to career success.

['I would much rather talk about the island.'

"How do you get to it? Is it far? What happens if you are sick? I love camping - camp in the UK but would be nervous about no food shops or hospitals!
If you build can you get electrcity?
It sounds fun. Not something I'd ever do even if we won the lottery cos dd must always be within 5 minutes of a good hospital. "

We can stay in a hotel about 40 mins by speed boat away. I would use a generator if I built on it (for power). There is a small medical unit on a big island near ours.]

And well done twinset - FWIW I always feel from your posts that you have a terrifically close relationship with your dd.

Interacting with small children encourages a level of empathy that you seem unable to achieve, Cote.

Have you noticed how those who insist on the stultifying nature of domesticity are those who utterly lack emotional intelligence? For those of you who have difficulty understanding other people?s motivations, here?s a primer. Some of us (male and female) place very little value on material luxury. We do not equate high earnings with intelligence (and indeed many of you, going by the lamentable powers of reasoning you demonstrate in your posts, prove this association to be false). We do not think that being Chief Executive of Terribly Important plc proves anything at all about you (except, perhaps, that you are more than usually likely to be arrogant, overbearing and unpleasant, and we would probably go out of our way to avoid you at parties).

We find our children's company stimulating and enriching - far more so than the drone-like fugue state of wage-slavery.

oooh - that's not very kind policy

You don't stop interacting with your children just because you have a job you know!! I always used to quite enjoy doing puzzles etc with my kids (nappy changing not interesting though!) but I reckon I enjoyed it more because I wasnt doing it all day.

We arfe incredibly close, our very difficult start in life has given us a very close bond although sometimes I think it can be too intense.

We spent three months living in a hospital togther with only each other for company and I had no work, or household chores so was able to devote myself totally to her. As a result we are close but she is a little clingy.