to want to post on the "For my husband to earn £65,000 per annum and we still can't afford to live"..... thread because it's full???

[chockywocky]

i cant believe its full and and havent had my say.....

I don't think nmc has tried to claim that her instincts are backed up by research, ftr. Equally, those who believe in the supposedly positive example of WOH parents have nothing conclusive to back up their beliefs.

Actually I don't think any of us can possibly know whether our children are 'better' (whatever that means) with one thing or another.

As I said before, we all have only one crack at it, so if you stay home, then you don't know how your children would have turned out if you'd worked, or vice versa.

If people are fortunate enough to have a choice, then fine, make your choice. It doesn't mean that it's 'better' - it's a choice at the end of the day. Just like living in a town isn't 'better' than living in the country - it's different that's all. And many of us live in different places at different points in our lives anyway!

There are too many comments to comment on them all. If you repeat a specific question I will try to answer it. Many/most women find being at home deadly dull so don't do it. Simple as that. Vast numbers love their work. Many have a fantasy that being home with under 5 is lovely and then try it and realise it's very hard work for which you get little thanks.

Anyone who has small children whether they work or not know life is very hard in that stage. Hardest stage of my life was when we had a baby, a 1 year old and a 3 year old, whether you work or not but I would not have done it without also working as that would have been even harder.

On breastfeeding if 24 years ago I could work and breastfeed I am sure mothers today can do so although I didn't like expressing and when I had the twins and was mostly based working from home with email etc it was much much easier for the nanny to come in,s ay they needed a feed and then I'd go through and feed them at the same time. I have never bottle fed a baby personally and also my babies always just had my milk.

I would rather pay 41% upper rate of tax/national insurance than pay 60% + and have virtually free child care as might be the case if I were in say Finland or France.

Also being 46 with the older 3 children in their 20s now I do see the longer view, that the stage when they are little and hard work and you have no money does pass and that 20 years on you realise how much better we all are now because I worked, that that investment in the career which is never very easy in early stages whether you're male or female if you have children, pays off.

As for people taking a lot from a higher earning spouse on divorce although that is the law in practice many people do evade their responsibilities so it probably does pay most women to have some remaining earning capacity. Many a woman has to move on to state benefits after a divorce whilst the man has skipped the country with all their money.

I would much rather talk about the island as someone was asking. There's nothing on it except rain forest, bit of a beach, loads of birds on a bird colony, insects and I think I saw a snake. It's very beautiful and simple. I haven't built on it yet. We will probably camp on it next time we go. They do not cost huge sums actually. It sounds a richer thing to have than it actually is.

I can. ds1 couldn't cope with school and wanted to die. I took him out, home educated him and he improved in leaps and bounds. I reckon thats pretty good evidence.

Happywomble why is it up to the woman to cook when she gets home from work, why is it down to the woman to stay at home if they are sick? How often are your children sick?

findtheriver on Sun 09-Nov-08 11:15:24
excellent post

I hate Xenia bashing.

As I've said before I think it's about what's best for you and your family.

What exactly do we get out of denegrating other peoples decisions or ideals?

I don't stay at home and I wouldn't actually even if we did win the lottery. That's how much I enjoy being in the land of work and how rubbish I was when I stayed at home during my mat.

Some people enjoy and thrive at being sahm.

As long as we have a choice to do what we want we're in the black.

Stop trying to push down each others throats that your way is better. It rude and pointless and gets us, as women, (the one thing we are surely united in) nowhere.

For every piece of research stating that it is better for a child to remain in their home there will be another peice published or being researched that will state the opposite

We are each trying to do our best in whatever situation we find ourselves in, some through choice some without.

All this sort of thread does is promote bad feeling.

'I would much rather talk about the island as someone was asking. There's nothing on it except rain forest, bit of a beach, loads of birds on a bird colony, insects and I think I saw a snake. It's very beautiful and simple. I haven't built on it yet. We will probably camp on it next time we go. They do not cost huge sums actually. It sounds a richer thing to have than it actually is.'

How do you get to it? Is it far? What happens if you are sick? I love camping - camp in the UK but would be nervous about no food shops or hospitals!
If you build can you get electrcity?
It sounds fun. Not something I'd ever do even if we won the lottery cos dd must always be within 5 minutes of a good hospital.

Crunchie on Sun 09-Nov-08 11:32:12
Excellent post I could marry you, but don't expect me to support you.

needmorecoffee - your point shows evidence that one of your children was extremely unhappy and distressed in a particular situation. You (quite rightly, as any parent would) responded to this. Your solution was to home educate. For many parents that might not be an option, or they might choose another school/type of school instead. And if that didn't work out, then they would reassess and think again.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make, other than that you are doing the best for your children, as I'm sure every other parent does.

To draw the conclusion from your own very specific and unusual set of circumstances that it is better for a parent to be at home with children under 5 years is not logical.

Twinsetandpearls

"Happywomble why is it up to the woman to cook when she gets home from work, why is it down to the woman to stay at home if they are sick? How often are your children sick?"

It is not up to the woman to do these things..if both parents are working full time it is up to both parents to do them.

My DS was ill quite a lot when he was pre school actually.

Twinsetandpearls "I hate Xenia bashing"

What do you mean by this..are we unable to disagree with Xenia's posts?

I think I may have fallen for Xenia.

I am a stay at home mum and I totally agree with you. I do it because I have never found another job that I found more satisfying.

Absolutely fair anough then greyskull - assuming that your partner is happy with this, can afford to support you, and enjoys his job more than you've enjoyed your work life!

How refreshing for someone to say they are a SAHM because it's what they want to do, rather than trying to claim it's 'better'!

Hapywomble but you did not talk about your DH staying at home you said you would have to.

If your child is sick a lot that is another matter but I don't generally get the argument I can;t work incase my child gets ill when it is not a regular occurance.

I think people do bash Xenia and automatically assume she is wrong rather than think about what the message of her post is.

I take her posts to read for God sake women why are you relying on men to provide you with security. I wish someone like Xenia had given me the wake up call I needed before I became a SAHM depending on my higher earning husband. I may have thought I was giving my dd the best start in life by being at home but a few months later we were on the streets and living in real danger amongst prostitutes and drug dealers.

I know I am going to come across as a bitter haggered old witch but I will never ever again rely on anyone (male or female so this is not a man hating thing ) to provide security for my dd or I. When he wanted me to leave my rented house and into a home he was buying I insisted my name when on the mortgage to give me equal rights even though I paid nothing in. I work now and have almost obsessively worked to a stage where I could support myself and take over the mortagage. Now that we have moved down south again I am trying to get a further promotion so I can afford to support myself down here if I need to. It is sad that I have to think like that but it is realistic. To do any different in a world where so many relationships/ marriages end in divorce is foolish in my opinion.

'To draw the conclusion from your own very specific and unusual set of circumstances that it is better for a parent to be at home with children under 5 years is not logical.'

All I said was I believe its better for a parent to be home with young children. Whether its logical or not is irelevant. Its what I belive so I did it. Some people share my beliefs, others do not but I am entitled to them.
I wanted to stay home. So I did.

At the risk of sounding pedantic, needmorecoffee, you are saying two things here.

I have no issue with this part:'I wanted to stay home. So I did.'

I do object to this: 'I believe its better for a parent to be home with young children.'

The first statement is about your own circumstances. The second statement is a generalisation - you mention 'a parent', ie, parents generally.

Can you not see the inconsistency here? As individuals, we all make choices determined by our own set of circumstances. In other circumstances, we might act differently. No doubt if I hadn't got any qualifications, and had low earning power, then I would probably not have returned to work. If I hadn't been very good at my job, I might have given up work. If my children had been clingy and miserable being looked after by someone else, then I probably would have given up work.

I have made what I feel is the 'best' decision for the whole family, at various phases during my life. I am not claiming that this is 'better' for my children. There are some things that there are very clear evidence for - we would certainly be significantly worse off if I didnt work, I would almost certainly not be at the level I'm working at now if I'd given up work completely at any point, and we'd certainly spend retirement in poverty!! But I cannot possibly claim that my children have been 'better' with their experience, any more than a parent who stays home can claim it!

I just wish people would stop drawing a general conclusion from their own specific experience. Life doesnt work like that.

yes but I don't push my views on others. I do what I want and what I think is best..
But Xenia and some like her then push what 'they' think is best and draw conclusions and make generalisations too.
I have other beliefs too - god, veganism etc but I don't push those on others although I will state that this is what I believe.
I don't see your issue.

I have drawn from conclusions from my own life experience but I think I would be daft not to. I would be a failure as a parent if I put dd in the same situation again.

We all have our individual life experiences, but that doesn't mean it's OK to insult other people whose experiences are different (and Xenia does insult SAHMs, routinely).

I can say with absolute certainty that I would never end up on the street if DP left me (which itself is unlikely in the extreme - smug, but true). My dad is extremely solvent and extremely generous. I have a legacy from my mother (who stayed at home with us until we went to school, then retrained and went on to have an extremely accomplished and successful career). My parents-in-law are similarly solvent and would not see me and their grandchildren on the street. DP is a decent man and he would not see me on the street. Of course, I am capable of earning if I need to - enough to cover the mortgage and essential bills.

Would it be correct for me to extrapolate from this to say that no SAHM should ever worry about her financial position? No. So why extrapolate from your experience to say that all SAHMs who don't prioritise their career are foolish?

needmorecoffee: The issue is quite simple: yes, of course you do what is best for your children. As we all do. But when you make a statement such as:

'I believe its better for a parent to be home with young children.'

then you are making a general statement. You are taking what you decided to do with your children, in your very specific circumstances, and generalising from that.
That's my issue.

It also actually contradicts one of your earlier posts:

'my evidence is for my kids alone obviously. I neither know or really think about other people's.'

Why then, do you believe that is is better for children age 5 and below to have a parent at home all the time?

I can't answer for Xenia, I am not Xenia, so I'm a little confused as to why you respond to my posts by quoting her.

Policy before I ended up on the streets I never thought it would happen and I know no one else did either. We were the golden couple who lived in the plush riverside apartment with no worries. I had a career but stopped working when I was pregnant so I could devote myself to motherhood. We had access to each others bank accounts but he had been for some time the main wage earner. He decided one say he had enough , he stopped me having access to his bank account, emptied mine and said I had 2 weeks to find somewhere to live. I had no where to go so ended up in hospital, park benches, hostels all with a baby.

Unless you have cash and equity you can get hold off immediatly it could happen to you.

But policy if you have access to security from your family then you have nothing to worry about and can make any career choice you want.

The only security I had, or thought I had came from my husband, so in fact it was no security. I would advise any woman not to put herself in that situation, and for many of us that means we have to work.

twinset how did he empty your account? was it a joint one?

policy: I wouldnt say worrying about ending up on the streets is my biggest motivation in working. I suspect xenia plays this card because of her own set of circumstances - she was screwed over by her ex so of course this is a subject close to her heart.

Most adults probably work for other reasons. I do it because I have an interesting job which satisfies me intellectually, I get to meet some great people and have a good social life connected to work as well as separate from work, it means I am up to date with skills,it brings a new dimension to my relationship with my DH and kids, it gives my children first hand experience that mums and dads can both have good jobs and be good parents, it earns me enough for us to travel, go to the theatre, eat out, it will give me a good pension so that DH and I will have a comfortable retirement etc..... I could probably add a lot more things to this list.

I'm not saying that this applies to everyone - each to their own.