to be deeply moved by visiting a truly "child-friendly" country and deeply saddened by the stark contrast with the UK

[hatwoman]

I am just back from Egypt and the warmth that complete strangers extended to my children and the pleasure they took from them moved me so much: waiters who played tricks on them - tickling their ears and then pretending they hadn;t done anything; carriage drivers who oh so carefully lifted them onto a carriage and let them take the reins; tourists from elsewhere in egypt who told them they were beautiful and asked if they could have a photo taken with them; restaurants who expect adults to bring their children to dinner (there are no "child-friendly" restaurants - becuase that implies ones that are child un-friendly); adults who talk to the children before us; adults whose small talk consisted of telling us all about their own children and how proud they are of them. it was absolutely lovely to meet so many people who clearly adored children and saw them for the important part of society that they are. I have spent a lot of time in egypt but this was my first visit with kids. it made me at once very happy but also sad - I think people in the UK used to be more like this and I rarely see it now.

Kewcumber - DH and I run our own business, and even though we could make a ton more money if we did things differently, we've kept it going because of how it allows us to spend time with DS.

DH works 8 (well more often 9 but he does try) to 4 and our young, single minions work 10-6 (there are only 2 of them and they're happy to do this) so DH can get home for DS's dinner and bath. Its very important to us as DS is asleep for 6 and DH is upset if he doesn't get home till after that.

We've also moved offices so that I can easily walk to and from work so that I can work 2-3 hours per day instead of 2 days a week as I didn't like being away from DS all day. I do know how lucky I am!

I concur that chicken nuggets, ham and chips and yucky additive ridden childrens ice-creams are prevalent on children's menus in France. Also cheap plastic toys.

From what I gather, there are a lot of thirty something parents who also don't have much of a clue about homecooking and nutrition.

But children are always included to party and dinner party invites and we seem to be in a minority leaving ours with a babysitter rather than bringing them along for them to watch a movie and crash on the sofa while the adults dine / dance into the small hours.

"Italians don't send their children to bed at seven", sorry, I've re read this sentence and it sounds a bit arsey (does this word exist?)

Yes, deffo early bedtimes aren't that sacred here in Italy, especially as (at least in big cities) most parents work full time (long hrs here as well) and they obviously wish to spend some time with their children once they get home . Mind you, I do believe there should be some middle ground between having bedtime at 7 and anytime after 11.30...

I also wanted to add that children menu in the UK have improved enormously in the last 8 yrs.

Interesting. We moved back from France this summer, and I have to say that here (admittedly it's Cornwall and maybe not typical) people have been absolutely lovely to the DCs. We've been out to lunch / dinner when we can afford to, at Pizza Express type restaurants, and have had great experiences, fantastic waiters, etc.

And in France, I really did find the 'child friendly' thing to be a bit of a myth. Some people loved them, some didn't, just like here. Children's menus had chicken nuggets and pizzas on, just like here. DS2 developed a passion for mussels in the restaurants of Biarritz, but it continues, finances permitting, in Cornwall.

Yes, you see teenagers, and also younger children, sitting up at tables conversing with the adults, and that's great and I make a point of doing that with my dcs too. Often, though, this means talking about Ben 10 a lot, and DH and I also enjoy roping in a babysitter and heading out without them.

The late bedtime issue confused me for the entire 5 years I lived there. Nine pm was the standard early school-night bedtime for 4 and 5 year olds. School started at 8.45 am. There's just no way mine could have functioned on that little sleep and so they were always asleep by 8. People thought I was mad. Their children would be so shattered by the weekend that they'd sleep in till 11, and so the parents would as well. Fair enough - but I never got close to being able to manage that sort of routine.

I'm just rambling now I think, but it's an interesting topic and, in many ways (primary education another one), since we've been livign here, I find the automatic UK bashing (not on here, in general) a bit baffling, as in lots of ways life here is good, and other countries don't seem to do the 'we're crap, we are' thing like we do.

Children's menus have improved a lot since DS was a baby 13 years ago. He never was a chicken nugget boy and loved foods like Mussels. A lot more of the child friendly restaurants child menus are smaller portions of the adult menu or places like Browns in Covent Garden (not sure if it is still there) would do half portion of anything off their adult menu that was practicable.

I found the children's food in Netherlands very much chicken nuggety with the ubiquitus apple sauce served with everything.

Oh no, believe me, lots of countries manage the "we are crap" very well. Perhaps not France though

My theory is the more mediterranean the country, the friendlier they are to children.

I visited northern France, last Christmas, and had the same conversation with a French mum. She said that within France itself, there's a big difference. The further south in France you go, she said, the friendlier the people are, especially to children.

However, unlike England, France has tax benefits and credits for all children, throughout France. Large families (those with more than 2 children, even if they are step-children or 1/2 siblings) get huge discounts on almost all aspects of life - travel for instance.

Coming from an international background - and having lived in over 5 European countries - England is the least child friendly IMO. An opinion BTW, which seems to be supported (last year at least), by the infamous UNICEF report.

I could go on a rant from here onwards as to the reasons, but I will spare you all of that!

MissClavel, everyone thinks we are weird for trying to get the DCs in bed by 7.30 - 8 on a school night so they get 11 hours sleep.

DD is 3, has no nap at school and has to get up a 7am on school days. On several occasions she has nodded off while DS is doing his homework at 6pm.

It's all very well for Middle Eastern countries to be family friendly: there aren't nearly as many single or childless adults there, are there? Or am I wrong - I'm open to correction on this.

I understand that in ME countries, it's a bit like the UK 50 years ago, ie there is a very strong social expectation that you will marry and have kids as soon as your education is over. So most adults will have kids, unlike here in the UK where so many of us remain single or don't have kids at all.

If you and your DP/H had a precious night off to go and have a lovely meal together just the two of you, would you really want to be surrounded by other people's kids? Or would you rather have an 'adults only' time?

I'm happy for the UK to cater to all , ie families and 'adults only'. Many many people don't have kids and prefer not to share their space with other peoples'.

Otherside - DS2 once fell asleep at the school cantine, with his face in a plate of spaghetti. They did remove him for a nap at that point but it was a one-off as all the little beds were allocated to the younger children.

I have no idea how all the other children cope, but they seem to do well on it...

franca - yes, France in general is not overburdened with a 'we are crap' mentality . Interesting that other countries do it too, though. So is it an Italian thing too?

familybliss, good point about the tax credits. They are amazing, and yes, we had (still have, actually) a 'Carte de famille nombreuse' which got us all sorts of discounts on train travel, museum entry, etc. And the tax credits are so simple over there, in that you get the discount as part of your tax return, whereas here I'm still trying to get to grips with wtf tax credits are and how on earth I am supposed to go about getting them.

I barely register the presence of other people's children when (very rarely) I go out without mine in restaurants etc. I really don't get how anyone can be bothered by the presence of a child you don't need to mind because it is not yours!

Missclavel, yes, it is an Italian thing as well. Possibly with more reasons than the UK (plus, different political views make for different reasons why one thinks that Italy is crap, iyswim...)

Quite agree franca. And even if they are being a pita, they aren't my problem so it doesn't bother me.

The Middle East is very child friendly - I can remember being in a shop with DS - half Arab but very English looking, where a male shop assistant actually left the till, crouched down in front of the buggy, beaming at DS, kissed him on both cheeks and said oh I like him so much and proceeded to talk about his kids etc. Was rather lovely really. People ruffled his hair when we were out shopping, beamed at him when he chattered away in restaurants etc

Yes, the expectation there is that you will get married and have children and you are looked upon rather strangely if you say you don't want children or sadly if you say you are struggling with having them - but that is the culture over there. Children are seen as essential to life and life affirming and its very refreshing as a parent tbh

However, it is not buggy friendly! The pavements are a sod to get up and down and you'd be hard pushed to find baby change in most places and they generally don't use car seats there either - although that is starting to slowly change - thank God!

But overall, much better than here in the UK. Can remember being in a park with DS at 9pm at night and it was great - no yobs, just families strolling around with ice cream and DS happily kicking a football with DH and his cousin...

It must indeed be very refreshing to a parent to see such a child oriented culture, obviously less so to the childless.

Our UK culture caters to all, doesn't it. I have found loads of random strangers here to be friendly and loving to the kids in our family.

Personally I wouldn't want to live in a country where being different was pitied or looked down on. How do they treat gay people, for instance?

morriszapp - I think you raise an interesting issue - and I did think of it myself. To what extent does this level of child/family centric attitude come at the expense of social freedom to buck the "trend"? It's no fun being gay in Egypt, for example. I'm sure there must be plenty of serious analysis of this. It would be wonderful if the two things (serious, deep child-orientation on the one hand and real liberalism/inclusivity on the other) were not related to each other in some sort of inverse correlation and could happily and genuinely co-exist, but I can't help wonder...

[cross posted there - didn't realised you'd specifically asked re being gay] i'll look up some literature that gives you an idea. it's not a pretty picture

Gay in the Middle East - 'it doesn't happen'..well, that's the official party line but there is a flourishing gay scene but its very much underground....massive family scandal if you admit to being gay blah blah...very sad for the individual that is gay. Not so bad in Beruit though - that's more cosmopolitan...

Gay men just do what they did 50 years ago here - get married, have kids and probably sneak around....terribly sad..for the wife too I would imagine...

Yup, many of the countries with enviable extended family values, childcare done by loving and available aunties etc come at a price.

Having said that, Spain is a very progressive and liberal country, where kids don't seem to actually go to bed! They are just part of the general rammy, and fall asleep where they land.

I was brought up a bit like that (in Edinburgh!) but if I had kids of my own I know I'd be a big fan of rules and bedtime.

Also, although Spain has a very open minded and tolerant view of kids, in practical terms, it's a nightmare. There is virtually no practical concession made for baby changing, bottle heating etc, according to the Rough Guide.

in some cases being gay can land you in jail - this was quite a well publicised case in Egypt.

^^ as I suspected, they don't tolerate gay people in most ME countries. It's just not a compromise I could make myself. I would need to be sure I was raising my kids in a tolerant country, where they could feel comfortable in themselves, no matter what kind of adult they grew into.

Oh and bucking the trend - not approved of. The family pressure is immense in the M.East..you cannot underestimate the power of it...one of DH's cousins is in love with a woman that would not be considered a suitable wife for him as she is divorced with a child..so, he's sneaking around with her (not sleeping with her though) and all the while, his family are making noises for him to settle down and his Dad is getting stressed with him being umarried and all that!

I personally, as a Muslim, go down the Islamic line - you can marry a divorced woman in Islam and taking on her child is very much favoured and rewarded...yet, despite people being sooo religous - they can't shake the cultural aspect of it all off and see it from the religous point of view...I find it fascinating and could go on about it all day...

Don't worry, I won't

I'm starting to view my ideal child friendly country and that would have:

• mediterranean "ease" towards children

• Scandinavian extended system of nurseries (mostly based on the Reggio Emilia model)

• The uk practical concessions for children
• mussels in the children's menus.

right then. next holiday...off to Spain.... I could get my fix of Islamic architecture too.

oh the UK's not that bad