to be deeply moved by visiting a truly "child-friendly" country and deeply saddened by the stark contrast with the UK

[hatwoman]

I am just back from Egypt and the warmth that complete strangers extended to my children and the pleasure they took from them moved me so much: waiters who played tricks on them - tickling their ears and then pretending they hadn;t done anything; carriage drivers who oh so carefully lifted them onto a carriage and let them take the reins; tourists from elsewhere in egypt who told them they were beautiful and asked if they could have a photo taken with them; restaurants who expect adults to bring their children to dinner (there are no "child-friendly" restaurants - becuase that implies ones that are child un-friendly); adults who talk to the children before us; adults whose small talk consisted of telling us all about their own children and how proud they are of them. it was absolutely lovely to meet so many people who clearly adored children and saw them for the important part of society that they are. I have spent a lot of time in egypt but this was my first visit with kids. it made me at once very happy but also sad - I think people in the UK used to be more like this and I rarely see it now.

When DS was 5mo we went to eat in a restaurant in Cheshire. It was fairly quiet. One of the waiters, early twenties, held DS and rocked him to sleep while we enjoyed our mealboth sitting down.

It was an Indian restaurant.

My Dh is from north Africa, once whe where at Asda, and a lady was passing us with a little girl sitting in the trolley. He gave her a little wave and tickled her under the chin (the girl not the mum)
you would not believe the fuss the mother made about it. Poor DH was in shock and so was I even though I am European.

Man, you want child-friendly, come to China! The picture on my profile is pretty typical of the attention DD generates. We took her to Nanjing Lu (Shanghai's Oxford Street) the other week and as soon as we let one person pose to have his photo taken with DD, a queue of about 30 people formed to do the same.

In fact I am just back from having lunch at the pub on the corner. I go there most days because the staff whisk DD off for a cuddle and a play while I have my lunch and read the IHT from cover to cover (that sounds terribly neglectful, but they adore DD and she adores them, and I think it's good for her linguistic ability to have people chatting to her in Mandarin and Shanghainese all day).

My brother was visiting the other week and wanted to do some shopping - I told him that rather than go on his own, he should wait while I got DD ready, because if we had her with us we'd get bigger discounts.

The downside is that people are always trying to stuff something unsuitable into her mouth. When DD was three months old I had to explain gently to a waiter that she was still breast-feeding and therefore wouldn't be eating the little bowl of chocolate sauce he'd brought to the table for her. I am forever intercepting monkey nuts and boiled sweets that some old lady is trying to feed her.

hmm

germany is very child friendly, but only if you have 1 - 2 perfectly behaved children.

there is one museum where we go in rural bavaria, where EVERY single time we go there, the ticket woman asks if my husband is with us when she is counting out the tickets. I am a single parent with 4 children.

I think that Britain is often child friendly, mine used to get fussed over when they were small.
Badly behaved DCs spoil it for everyone. If people are out for a meal they don't want DCs running around; if they are sitting down chatting to the adults in their party you can get quite a lot of compliments.
You also can't have it both ways. I can imagine some of the comments on here if people were out in a restaurant and a waiter picked up their DC and took it to the kitchens to be fussed over!! Any male waiter would be stupid to touch a British DC and I expect they steer well clear for that very reason.
You also get a lot of comments on here if someone dares to tell someone else's DC not to do something!

I've talked about this before but whenever we go to Spain, Portugal, France or Italy the majority of people are lovely to our kids (having a white blond dd and a ginger baby does help ). That said the UK consistantly disappoints me with its reaction to our LO's. I was even told by a woman recently that my DS at nearly 2 was too young to be in a restaurant at 6.45pm (when we were LEAVING argh). Some people here seem to think that children do not become part of your family until they are much older. I think that our cultural exclusion of our children is part of what causes so many problems with our teenagers as they are used to being excluded and come to expect their own space. In France the teens sit with their parents and enjoy the banter at the table rather than skulking off to smoke fags at the local bus stop. I could be wrong but I hope that keeping my children involved in as much of our socialising as possible will keep them connected to us, our family and our friends.

Ah the naivity of the newish parent!!

I don't agree abbeya. If for example I take mine out for a meal somewhere grown-up, they always rise to the occasion and behave well. But that only means they get rewarded by being ignored, not by being made a fuss of . IME badly-behaved children do get tuts and dirty looks. Well-behaved ones get ignored.

There are always honourable exceptions of course. Our local Prezzo has some lovely Polish people working there who talk to my children and make a fuss. And there are still some members of the general public that notice and enjoy little children. I'm one. But I wouldn't dare to touch a child no matter how much I long to ruffle hair and pinch little toes.

Orm, I concur. My DD is great when we take her out, a real credit to us and she does get ignored. DS is more often than not very good but usually only gets attention when he starts to get loud at which point we take him home. In Spain recently (in a Chinese restaurant- don't ask) when he started to get a bit moany, half the staff rushed over and took him away for a walk and to look at their fish tank. I have never had an experience like this in the UK but have had that type of thing on the Continent regularly.

I take our children (DSS1 (13), DSS2 (11) and DD (4)) around and about all over Europe, pretty constantly.

I don't encounter many problems. They can rise to the occasion and behave appropriately when we are out and about because they have been brought up since birth to do so.

DD does not like being singled out for attention, less still touched, by strangers. Frankly, I think it is a gross invasion of anyone's privacy to touch them unless you are quite sure they agree to it.

totalla gree with OP, I felt quite miserable after returning from Spain last year

I was, however, extremely impressed on our recent trip to Italy that twice in two days the waiter took DD's order, and brought it to the table, in the time it took the two of us to decide what we were going to eat.

Hungry children having to wait too long for food is one of the main reasons children misbehave in restaurants.

I would agree OrmIrian that there is a large chunk of the public who will ignore them, however well behaved which is sad.(It also makes me very cross if a DC does something like hold a door open and they don't even get a thank you.)
However many are allowed to run riot by their parents and it is very hard when you want to stop them and you are powerless!
My DS1 was picked up and taken off to see model trains in Canada and DS3 was always having his head stroked in Spain-no one would dare touch a DC in this country which is very sad.
You will only get a child friendly society where it takes a community to raise the DC. If parents are suspicious of strangers and insist that they are the only people allowed to correct their DC, you will have problems.

I've found people here in the UK to be very child friendly. DS is a noisy but cheerful baby (normally shouting happily while throwing his lunch around - we BLW) and people don't generally seem to mind the noise. We get lots of smiles, people talking to him and asking about him, lots of cheek tickling and hair stroking.

I used to find it annoying and intrusive but DS loves it so much that its hard to object these days. I do wonder though whether he's just much more accessible in a sling - people can easily talk right to his face...

Everyone made a fuss of ds and tried to touch him-and this is in the UK.

A lot of people may be afraid of being rebuffed. Only yesterday there was a thread started by someone who was on a train and was asked 'if she had a good baby'. To my mind this person was just being friendly and starting a conversation but her opening remarks were then analysed and pulled apart!
It is not surprising that people don't bother!

It is the same in Italy.

No BLARING Widescreen TV's. Lovely family meals.

Stark contrast to the UK.

I agree that it is the catch22 situation.
People give dirty looks and tut because they have had bad experiences. I have found that you can get over that if they are well behaved. I have actually had people come over and say how well behaved my DCs are, I think this is only because they are pleasantly surprised. I think the answer is to persevere even if you get the dirty looks.
I once took my DS1, aged 3yrs, on a long distance coach (several days) and if looks could have killed we would have been dead!! They began to thaw after the first day and by the end of the second he was everyone's friend (almost the coach mascot). This was because he wasn't spoiling anyone else's enjoyment.

I have always been lucky in UK but as DS isn;t yet three our experince of taking him to restaurants is limited. When we have people have been pretty tolerant. I let him run around a little (ie close to our table and not too noisily) and bring stuff to keep him entertained. I also make sure he's absolutely starving and feed him something complicated (like spag bol not cut up) as it keeps his attention for hours!

I'm lucky though DS is going through quite a cute and engaging phase and most people respond to that. He is also going through a very very polite phase which generally thaws even the frostiest of Brits... on Sunday after havign a passport photo taken by a woman in Snappysnaps and her colleague who took our money, DS about to leave turned round and waved and said "Bye bye my ladies".

Slightly poker faced women melted into smiles and giggles and waves!

Similar on the way to Portugal a few years ago. DS#1 was 3, DD was 1. The plane was full of OAPs. They looked horrified when we got on. But the DC behaved so well that we were complimented when we got off. But again, that is older people.

Totally agree about the catch-22. Have posted many times about the ghetto hell of places like Charlie Chalks etc. Children seem to be encouraged to behave like little thugs - and the food is atrocious. If that is the only experience of eating out that children have how the f* are they supposed to learn to behave well?

If you take them out you have to be prepared. Firstly, conversation around the table has to include them. If you think they are not good at just sitting and talking, take something to occupy them. It is not surprising that they are badly behaved if they are supposed to sit still, with nothing to do and they are not included in the conversation.

TBH I was expecting the worst when pregnant, as I thought this country was fairly child-unfriendly but I have been amazed since having DS just how friendly and indulgent and helpful people have been. And I live in London!

The amount of times people have helped me up the stairs, distracted him when he's a bit grumpy, stopped to chat to him in the street, given up their seat on a train, let me go ahead of them in a queue at the supermarket has amazed me. It might not be as demonstrative as an Italian waiter scooping a child up and whisking them around the restaurant, but it is at least as helpful and just as thoughtful.

I think we can do our country a disservice, and I think part of it is that people here are often more reserved than in other countries so we just don't notice their attention or help as much. But it is there, and I for one really appreciate it.

As a completely anecdotal (and therefore not overly helpful) aside, the only person who has ever commented in a negative way was some old woman in the supermarket recently, and she happened to be foreign!

Agree with AbbeyA. My dcs have often been the recipients of positive attention from strangers when we are out and about and in restaurants etc. I do try and ensure that I don't take my dcs to inappropriate places where they are bound to be unwelcome and I do my best to get them to behave well and take other people's needs into account. My experience is that not all parents do this. I meet quite a few people with a ridiculous sense of entitlement, who think that no one has a right to be annoyed if their children behave badly in a public place (and we're not talking toddler tantrums, but uncontrolled naughtiness and rudeness). There are plenty of countries where people are oh so nice to babies but still allow 6 year olds to work in sweat shops.

We travelled in business class with our DD on Air France to Milan last week and got lots of dirty looks from other passengers but I think they were just jealous and thinking what indulgent parents we were (she and I were travelling on Air Miles in matter of fact).