to be deeply moved by visiting a truly "child-friendly" country and deeply saddened by the stark contrast with the UK

[hatwoman]

I am just back from Egypt and the warmth that complete strangers extended to my children and the pleasure they took from them moved me so much: waiters who played tricks on them - tickling their ears and then pretending they hadn;t done anything; carriage drivers who oh so carefully lifted them onto a carriage and let them take the reins; tourists from elsewhere in egypt who told them they were beautiful and asked if they could have a photo taken with them; restaurants who expect adults to bring their children to dinner (there are no "child-friendly" restaurants - becuase that implies ones that are child un-friendly); adults who talk to the children before us; adults whose small talk consisted of telling us all about their own children and how proud they are of them. it was absolutely lovely to meet so many people who clearly adored children and saw them for the important part of society that they are. I have spent a lot of time in egypt but this was my first visit with kids. it made me at once very happy but also sad - I think people in the UK used to be more like this and I rarely see it now.

"In France the teens sit with their parents and enjoy the banter at the table rather than skulking off to smoke fags at the local bus stop."

Judging by the local bus stop, they do both!

blimey what an interesting thread. I didn;t say it myself but I really do think there's an element of paedo-fear and just generally being afraid of overstepping the mark, that holds people back from interacting with kids. that makes me sad. dds gained a huge amount from just 10 days of being acknowledged by every single waiter, taxi driver, member of hotel staff we interacted with as worthy of being talked to.

It's hard to put my finger on it exactly, and I know the UK is not all bad - I'm sure we've all had positive experiences of having our babies coo-ed over, help with prams, compliments on our well-behaved kids (which all us mners have, of course ), but the difference was something bigger - it wasn't a few kind hearted people, it seemed to be about the place of children in society. I think the UK is better with babies than it is with larger kids.

someone raised the gender issue - dds are, obviously, girls, and I was expecting at least a few comments to dh about when he was going to have a son, or something similar, but there wasn't one at all.

Anna. I agree. It really should be impressed on waiting staff that it is worse for everyone if a child is kept waiting for their food!

We lived in the UK for 8 yrs and I've never experienced any problem in traveling around with the children. I think the UK are quite well organized around children.

But, yes, there is a certain restrain around children in the UK, that sense - as Hatwoman put so well - of "being afraid of overstepping the mark" that I found quite distant from my culture (in general there is the sense of overstepping the mark in all sorts of relationships, imho, which I've always been uncomfortable with for my whole staying in the UK).

In Italy, where I'm from and where we moved back, adults are less afraid to interact with children, I think. Which I find refreshing.
But, of course, there are many things I cannot stand about the way children are treated in Italy, but that needs a different thread

But what I find most interesting is the food.

If you take your child out in the uk, there is a childmeny that you are expected to chose from, usually chicken nuggets and chips, sausage and chips, or some other bland low quality food.

Whether it is Norway, Poland, India, France, Belgium, Germany or Spain (these are countries I have visited with young children), you usually just order a child sized portion from the standard menu.
Children are not expected to eat crap food when they go out for dinner, they eat what the grown ups do.

And you see that a lot in the UK, tea for the children is a much less inferior meal for most, than what supper time with partner is in the evening.

I wonder why that is? Why are children given second rate food?

Agree, Quint. We found it a bit easier with 2 children as we could order one main course and ask for them to divide it for us.

BiggestFirework- I have lived in Italy now for 15 years and have never, not once, been in either a restaurant or a family home where the television hasn't been on at mealtimes!

The seperate food thing is perhaps behind a lot of this - children tend to eat seperately from adults in many homes, eating establishments tend to be either child-friendly or not.

I don't really understand the reasons for the crap food either. Is it that a lot of LOs in the UK are given this bland rubbishy children's food at home and so it is all they will eat?

Upwind - hopefully things will improve as oldest is only 3 - but she would much rather eat children's menu than 1/2 and adult portion of most things. She just doesn't like interesting tastes yet and refuses sauce of any kind.

I agree with the points about us not being receptive enough to kind words from strangers. Oddly I would feel much more relaxed about dds hair being stroked if we were abroad than if it happened here.

the separate food is a cultural thing. i have never for example, stopped dc from eating someting becuase it was too chilli. so whilst they love theri chicken nuggets and stuff, they can eat hot curries quite happily.
in nandos for example, i stick withthe medium sauce, whilst ds's prefer the hot stuff.

The eating thing is interesting. DH and I are lucky enough to be able to eat our dinner at 5 so DS eats his meals with us(and soon we'll all be able to have lunch together sometimes!)

So far, at 9 months, DS loves going out to eat and often eats better than at home because there's so much to see to keep him interested in staying sat in his chair! I appreciate the practicalities of the situation but wonder if those kids who've eaten their dinner alone most of the time know how to sit up for a family meal? And can we expect them to do anything other than get bored if they haven't?

Qunit in our house the inferior tea (to my dinner thing is just a timing issue - DS's tea is my lunch and my dinner is his lunch (still following?)

I prefer him to have a main meal earlier in the day and a lighter tea. That just isn;t pratcial for me so I have a lighter lunch and a dinenr far too late in the evening when I can't digest it!

But do agree with crappy childrens menus. most decent places do effectively do just smaller meals off the main menu but so many don't. Perhaps its because those kind of places don't really have chefs who cook but food preparation people who decant?

Never understood the food thing either Quint.
I have always had hot food (lunch and dinner???) with my parents (well dad didn't come home for lunch) and we have always eaten the same food (and no tv in the kitchen bucharest ). So I did the same with my children. But then again, Italians don't send their children to bed at seven.

I agree re the food thing too. we noticed that hotel buffets didn't even charge for kids, which was great. and everywhere else just expected you to order small portions from the normal menu. dh had a right rant about "kid's menus" - he thinks - and I agree - that they are a contributory factor to fussiness, they are always infererior and send out a message that there are two types of food.

I have grown up with eating dinner at 5 with my parents. We have all eaten the same thing.
This is a habit that I bring to our own family, I cook dinner for 5 pm, and if dh is not home, he reheats the same food later, or eat it cold. I cook ONE hot meal per day, and it is always something that I would enjoy eating myself. My kids are therefore used to "adult" food.

Working hours are so long in the uk. It almost seems as if there is very little emphasis or even value on family life. Work is sacred. Children spend time either with mum at home, or in childcare.

It is very good to be back home in Norway again, where people leave work around 4 pm, pick up their kids from nursery or school, and have time together. Time to eat, relax, and maybe even visit somebody, and plenty of time to just enjoy being together.
(Sadly my own dh has to follow uk working hours)

"Italians don't send their children to bed at seven" dear Lord Franca - if only! I think I will nominate our house as honorary Italian...

coming home at 4 for dinner together (men and women) would be fab - I'd love it. How do we start the revolution?

I have travelled extensively in France and I find the situation pretty near identical to here as far as children's food is concerned. Any chain / inexpensive type of place generally offers a children's menu which is the same the world over (pasta, sausages, chicken nuggets, hamburgers) while a restaurant that prides itself on the quality of food and is correspondingly pricier will generally offer half size portions of adult meals. This rule also seems to apply in many European (and certainly Spain) countries as well as the US and Australia.

Of course there are some exceptions but it seems to me that in France, chicken nuggets are pretty pervasive. Indeed, France is McDonalds fastest growing and most profitable market in Europe (even ahead of the UK).

Of course I appreciate that logistics mean that not all families can eat together but personally it's one of the top priorities for me as a parent.

btw DS does eat the same as me just not necessarily at the same time - just yesterday evening we both had a mini ice cream cone each and a glass of milk!

My sister lives in Spain.
Her 13 year old dd loves it. After years and years of whining about bed time, and laying in bed for hours not managing to sleep, and move down there and see families sitting chatting outside their houses, with their children, till midnight, was a revelation. No my sister goes to bed when she is tired, and her daughter goes to bed when she is tired, after a long and cosy evening doing grown up things with her mum.

I love when my 2yo DN comes to visit - she has been raised mostly on jars and the blandest of child suitable food - ham sandwiches, chicken nuggets, sausages and chips...

We give her some of what everyone else is having with SIL's blessing. Sometimes she loves it (e.g. paella) often her little face screws up into the most amazing expressions as she tries things like garlic mushrooms for the first time.

chocolatedot - a greek friend of mine said exactly the same thing. she laughed when I said something about the diet being better - she said chicken nuggets are every bit as prevalent in Greece as here.

Glad to hear it hatwoman! I am always fairly mystified by the references to the wonderful diet children in other countries have compared to here.

We travel a lot and I struggle to think of many countries where in family-type restaurants, the children aren't offered chicken nuggets and so on. This was even the case in places like Finland and Russia. The only countries where it hasn't been are places like Morocco (outside Marrakech and beach resorts) and Asia Pacific countries (again outside the main cities and beach resorts).

Quint - Spainish living sounds good. I just imagine trying to talk to someone at midnight outside my house, we'd be freezing cold and soaking wet in minutes!!!

And we'd need a torch....