To alllow my dd (age 2) to use the word paki?

[littleducks]

ok i will admit thread title is deliberatly provocative (the other thread this morning has spurred me to ask) but the issue is this:

dh is british born pakistani, he uses the word paki, to describe himself and members of family mostly jokingly

he thinks dd should be allowed to say paki, i suppose in a 'reclaiming the word' way

I'm not so sure, dd is pale, blond with blue/green eyes, if you saw her alone/with me you wouldnt guess her cultural heritage and i fear she may offend someone, be told off especially at nursery/infant school as she grows older but doesnt understand about different terms for different audiences iyswim

dh sees my point but at the same time feels that as it is a term used by pakistani/british asian children (admitedly older pre teen and teenagers) i am in fact isolating her from her peers and will make it difficult for her to realise her identity

so am i being to smug and middle class?

Littleducks I watched a really interested programme about the 'n' word in which one of the singers from So Solid who regularly used the n word went and discussed it usage with a wide range of black british people.

At the end of the programme he vowed he would no longer use the word as it was so upsetting for so many black people.

I would argue that the majority of Asian people in this country would take offense by another Asian person using the word Paki, let alone a little child, particuarly one that looked white.

so yes YABU

That article was interesting, one thing struck me: "I began to understand that you can't say that a word means one thing coming from black people's lips but has another meaning when it comes from a white person's". This has always been the difficulty of the reclaimation argument. Does a word have a different meaning/ resonance when used by different people?

On your dilemma, LD, I'd just tell your DH that your DD is too young to reclaim any words - she's only just started learning them, reclaiming a word is a political act that's actually quite complex - not something a little girl should have to deal with IMO.

You can't reclaim a word which has been imposed upon you.

YA both BVU

Dh. mil etc. say 'pak' to mean very clean, so would ask me if i have washed the floor till it was 'pak' (obv whole sentence in urdu so it would make sense) but as it is pronounced slightly closer to 'park' than 'pack'

I see that the whole reclaim the word issue is controversial so will let dd decide for herself when she is old enough to have some sort of understanding. I dont really have an opinion on it tbh, but dh does and as it had only ever affected him previously i went with his thinking. I'm not sure if you can reclaim a word or not but if those it has been used against say they want to try as it originally derives from a word they feel ownership of i dont think i can say they shouldnt.

But far more people on this thread who are asian feel it is offensive than the social circuits i have known (perhaps a location thing) so it is probably best avoided for now.

Thanks for all your replies.

I think this reclaiming argument is really interesting. Where it falls down, is that all these offensive words which are re-claimed, are only ever re-claimed to a tiny extent by a tiny group of people. For many older black people, the N word is still deeply offensive, however much their grandchildren tell them they've reclaimed it. And can anyone imagine getting to a point where decent white well-meaning liberals (or even conservatives can use the word without it having even the smalles frisson of discomfort? If not, then it's not really reclaimed, is it? Because only one tiny little group of people can claim to have re-claimed it, that word will still have the same ugly connotations when used by every other person in the whole wide world.

Thanks for posting that article, beanies, I've always been vaguely on the side of the re-claimers, but I think that article may have made me lean towards the other side.

LBL, I've always understood the "reclaim" issue as referring to the process whereby a group about whom a word is used in a derogatory fashion appropriate said word to use within their own group (or sub-group). It is never, or almost never, acceptable by that group for anyone not of the group to use it. So, no, I can't imagine "decent white well-meaning liberals" ever being "allowed" to use the word "Paki".

And that for me is what makes it so pointless. Because out there, in the rest of society, that word still has its old meaning. So it hasn't really been re-claimed.

I am Asian and I would be appalled if I heard such a young child saying it. Ds1 picked it up at nursery (from an Afghan boy) and I was extremely shocked and mentioned it to the teacher. I also have relatives who use the term and it makes me cringe - I actually don't think it does amount to "reclaiming", I think it's just incredibly ignorant and shallow.

As a slightly side issue, ds & dd1's CM is from Pakistan.

We had a minor issue with her dd using the word 'goora' (sp?) to make reference to ds & dd1. When we checked with CM, it turns out that this means 'white' in Urdu - not in necessarily derogatory way, but CM's dd was using it in a not particularly pleasant way, in the course of bickering between the kids...

CM put an immediate stop to her dd's use of the word in this context(she hadn't known about it - ds had been coming home saying 'X keeps calling me a goora...').

Anyway, I'm waffling, but I think what I'm trying to say is that small children using colloquial references to race (especially words like 'paki' which have an established provenance of derogatory use) is probably an iffy area, & if in doubt should be discouraged until they're old enough to understand the full 'back story'.

So, basically, I think the OP is correct to avoid it.

My DD is 50% mixed asian and 50% white (DH) If I ever heard her use this term or anyone use this term towards her I would blow a gasket. Ignorant, outdated and attention seeking IMO - when DD started nursey, owner said, ooooh, first time we have had a brown baby - FFS

it's a derogatory derisory term.you are not denying heritage/culture by declining to use it

i wouldn't say it
it would offend my Asian friends
nor would i expect a toddler to say it

when your husband calls himself a paki, does he mean 'clean' as in the floor - the way your MIL does - or is he using the word paki as an ironic turnaround on the racist interpretation?

Pak is nowhere near Paki, it's a whole different word. Your husband might think about that.

by definition, 'queer' meant something different than what it became known as. it is more of an adoption of using the word within their language as a way of diverting the meaning the straight community used to refer to gay men.

'Madlentileater' Native American is used to refer to the native people of NA but Inuit falls under a particular Native American from a specific area such as Ojibway in Ontario or the Navajo down south.

beaniescreamyb- no its from the same word, pak means 'pure', pakistan means 'land of the pure', he uses paki as of pakistan

for example on this forum pak music a pakistani music site, people are refering to an artist as a 'paki princess' and this is def not derogatory (or even ironic etc)

and here a pakistan directory of some sort is called paki biz (instead of pakistani business)

and this website is pakimela (mela is like a fete/bazaar) and its alternative name is desichat, as someone already mentioned 'desi' means of my country and applies in several asian languages so two people wouls say they were desi but actually could be two different nationalaties

(There are some far better examples than these on urdu sites but I was trying to use English worded sites so everyone here could understand)

i'm not sure why it is pak 'i' as in urdu grammar i would have thought (but am not urdu expert) that would be the feminine form so shouldnt be used for a man but perhaps is a 'pakistan' is a feminine article or as 'purity' is pakeezgi and its a lazy shortening but will ask mil or sil as they are native urdu speakers

but none of the above applies to dd, as she speaks english (and thinks and dreams in it im pretty sure) so unlike dh wouldnt be using paki in urdu (and then like so many words making an English/urdu 'spanglish') so we will stick with our decision as it is obv controversial and isnt necessary

I cant believe the title of the thread
are you kidding me!!

I have studied teaching and the laws of racism and sexual discrimination ans so on

You cannot refer to anyones race with a slang term such as "paki"

another slang term for eg is "chinky" which is refered to as the slang for the chinese
It is completely unacceptable

My sons classmate was removed and excluded from the school to referring to a another classmate as a "chinky" for 3 days,his mother and father halled in

the schools and nuseries will have similar policies on this subject and will have zero acceptance of this

LittleDucks

I see what you're saying, and what your DH is saying. However, perhaps it can wait until she's older and understands it is a "sensitive" word that is only ok to use in certain circumstances.

wow, thanks littleducks that is incredibly interesting!
I think the "reclaiming" of certain words can be very powerful, for example I am very happy to use the word bitch when referring to myself, because I am happy to embrace the negative connotations and turn them on their heads. but this is a bit post-feminist and subtle for the majority of toddlers I think.
If a fourteen year old girl chose to refer to herself as a paki then I wouldn't see a problem with it. that would be her choice. but with a toddler we have a responsibility to emphasise what is generally acceptable and what owuld hurt someone's feelings, because that is more appropriate to their developmental stage.

sweeney have you read the thread?

yes i have

educate me then why is the term "paki" is deemed acceptable in your circumstances

in the circs it might be more of an idea not to hide it but suggest that the terms are only used in the home/family environment.

I personally wouldn't and don't allow my 2 year old DS to hear or use the term. XH is told off as are family members who use terms like that to talk about members of society.

each to his own and all, but they maybe a similar family who your DD unwittingly says 'little paki' to yet they might find it offensive.

my 3 year old asks for a "paki of crisps"!!! I think it is impossible to limit the use of words once a 2 year old hears them - my tot is currently using "oh my god" and "silly sod" both of which he has picked up from family luckily he can't pronounce his sh's or else i'm sure he'd be saying shit too

i have already explained about the origins and meaning.

I'm happy to agree to disagree with you but felt your anger was misplaced and I just wondered how it could be 'totally unacceptable' for dh/mil/bil/sil to refer to each other as pakis?

I have said i will try to avoid dd hearing it as I agree it is too complex for her but if she later decides to use it, who am i to seperate her from her peers?

I do apologise for my anger and for the origins and meaning issues within ther own circle is fine

but

how would you distinguish between the two meanings to your child within this society who the majority find the word offensive and would not use it

It would be clearly confusing for a child whether a pre teen, older or younger iyswim

I think it's rather sad that the emphasis seems to be so much on the differences between ethnic origins rather than on the common qualities shared by all PEOPLE.

At the age of two, my kids mixed with children of various ethnic origins, and guess what? - I don't think they even thought about it! Why would they? My DH isn't British, but it's not something he (or I) obsess about.