To alllow my dd (age 2) to use the word paki?

[littleducks]

ok i will admit thread title is deliberatly provocative (the other thread this morning has spurred me to ask) but the issue is this:

dh is british born pakistani, he uses the word paki, to describe himself and members of family mostly jokingly

he thinks dd should be allowed to say paki, i suppose in a 'reclaiming the word' way

I'm not so sure, dd is pale, blond with blue/green eyes, if you saw her alone/with me you wouldnt guess her cultural heritage and i fear she may offend someone, be told off especially at nursery/infant school as she grows older but doesnt understand about different terms for different audiences iyswim

dh sees my point but at the same time feels that as it is a term used by pakistani/british asian children (admitedly older pre teen and teenagers) i am in fact isolating her from her peers and will make it difficult for her to realise her identity

so am i being to smug and middle class?

[UmSami]

Littleducks...what a dilemma...not read all posts as now huge, sorry..

My DH is Egyptian, raised in UK...I, like you, am middle class english. Our first dc has my colouring, and at first glance people wouldn't imagine that he is anything other than a 'white boy'. In fact he's so fair that dh used to be worried about people accusing him of kidnap when alone with DS

My first response to your question...is NO NO NO...she can't be allowed to say that, it's just wrong...I mean if I saw a little white girl saying it, I'd be disgusted by her parents and not want my son to mix with her...

BUT...I wonder if your husbands desire to use this word with her is as a form of identification...not quite what I mean...but bare with me...I get upset, that Arabs don't immediately see my son as Arab..it's part of his heritage, I'm proud of that...it annoys me when white folk, just don't get it or look and try to work out if dad is dad. I use language to let people know that there is more going on than meets the eye...speak arabic to ds when he and I alone, refer to dad very loudly as dad...it shouldn't matter, but it does bug me when people assume...I want my son to identify with his peers of both cultures...I can see why your DP may want to use language that he deems ok.

Another point that your post made me think of...I had a friend, english, husband arab...half kids looked english, the other half arab...she lived in an area where paki was used as a derogatory term for anyone who's brown...therefore her kids heard it alot, and not in a nice way...she told them (ages from 1-12) that Paki means 'nice person', and is a complement...it saved her kids alot of heartache, and in time they learnt the meaning of words. Alot of people have suggested wait until your child understands the word and all that goes with it...after seeing how my friend coped with racist abuse I'm not so sure...A word means to a child what it is allowed to mean...if your daughter is likely to hear the word as a derogatory term...maybe you can ease the pain and take the edge off, by letting it be a word she is comfortable with and assosiates with Daddy...whatever it means to uneducated morons, it has anice meaning to her...

Just a few thoughts...its a hard one, sorry I can't be of more help...

[stitch]

from my experience of mixed race/culture marriages. the couple, as a family, tend to take on one culture over the other. very rarely does a fifty fifty split happen. one always dominates. as long as both parties are ok, it is a happier way.

[stitch]

from my experience of mixed race/culture marriages. the couple, as a family, tend to take on one culture over the other. very rarely does a fifty fifty split happen. one always dominates. as long as both parties are ok, it is a happier way.

[stitch]

onager, as a pakistani who was actually born in pakistan, i can still say, using the word paki si wrong wrong wrong.
it is insultign, derogatory, etc etc. i dont care if some people are happy to refer to themselves in such racist derogatory terms, all i am saying is that they would not be in my circle of friends.
i'm in the south. why?

[nooOOOoonki]

I agree with findtheriver -

why make race an issue for a 2 year old, my 3 year old is completely oblivious to race and will be for as long as I can let him. We live in a very multicultural city and don't want him to see people as anyhting than people for as long as possible.

[knockedgymnast]

To be honest, I can't understand all this reclaiming back to the word tbh. I'm black, but would never dream of calling myself or referring to other black people as 'niggers'. What totally baffles me is that it's ok for someone to use derogatory words against themselves but someone else of a different race can't?? I can understand that for your husband is perhaps 'softens' the blow but he should be proud of who he is. I'd rather refer to myself as a chocolate drop :O which is totally harmless that a nigger, which imo, has a totally different and vile meaning. One of the lads in my daughter's school got expelled for using the word 'paki'. I don't think he should say it to her.

[Grammaticus]

I don't think the issue is about the word itself, really, or the history, or signifcance, or rights and wrongs of it. The issue is what is best for your little DD and she will (surely) be told off for using the word at toddler group, nursery and school.

If I heard a child say that word, whatever the colour of the child, I would say "That's not a nice word to use" just as I would if they said "shit" in front of me. And I don't think I am alone, I think that is the cultural norm in this country. So a toddler needs to be taught not to use it - which probably means not saying it in front of her.

[littleducks]

depends on intent,if it was shouted at him probably would be pissed off, otherwise not really

[shhhh]

bizzarre imo....ok for your dh to use the term PAKI amongst his family etc YET I guess if someone on the street were to call him one he would deem it racist..? I guess..???

[onager]

Stitch, if you are pakistani yourself then what I said still makes sense because HE clearly isn't being racist. However if because of your heritage you have to put up with racism then your comment is perfectly understandable. I took it to mean "I wouldn't put up with it if I were you" which is different.

[littleducks]

I think we are loosely the opposite, but i wish we had friends in a mixed marriage would help to get perspective on these issues

[Ivegotaheadache]

Actually, thinking about my upbringing we never celebrated any of the pakistani celebrations or went to functions or anything like that but we did celebrate christmas adn easter. Most of my parents friends were asain married to white and they all got together for parties ect where there was drinking and things like that. We weren't religious, my dad wasn't a religious man and didn't particularly follow his own religion so that may have had something to do with it. Maybe I was more programmed to identify as being English. But looking back I do think that it would have been hard if I had been brought up with the asian culture but then not been accepted as being asian, then I don't know where I would have fitted in.

[Ivegotaheadache]

Littleducks - I do know what you mean, my first name is English but my surname wasn't, I had a Q not followed by a U. But I wouldn't worry too much, your dc's will find friends who do not care too much what they are. And there will be children from all sorts of backrounds who aren't just english or asian and hopefully everyone will all come together. Adn I think that maybe no matter what you try and teach them or tell them, when they get older they will get a feel for things themselves and settle where they feel most comfortable. You just wont know where they feel comfortable, until they do!

[littleducks]

(I may be totally wrong but i have a feeling stitch is pakistani)

[onager]

I see you're taking the tolerant stance there, Stitch. You do understand that he IS pakistani don't you? Perhaps he should be locked up for his obvious racist hatred of err himself

[littleducks]

stitch do you mind saying where you are (in very vague terms /NE/SE/SW etc?) if you do just ignore

[stitch]

i would never allow my kids to use that word.
i wouldnt allow my dh to use theword either.
he would never in a gazillion years have become my husband if i had ever heard himusing that word, or anything at all like it.

[Vulgar]

I'm going to add another word to the mix as well . . .

Some of the people that I know from Pakistan call themselves "Stanis"

Has anyone ever heard this? or is it just something from the small group I know?

BTW I would never use this word for fear of using it out of context and offending someone.

My Dh is mixed race, quite an unusual mix and sometimes it poses problems on form filling.

plus my DC is very white looking but I don't like to put catagorise him as purely white as he's not in my eyes! He's the most gorgeous child in the world obviously

[littleducks]

Ivegotaheadache- thats exactly what I am fearful of for dd,
Both she and ds have names which English children (prob slightly older than her) see as foreign and their surname is very foreign as has a q not followed by a u which confuses people alot

However she is seen as english by the asian children, appearance, language and cultural mannerisms all come into play not sure which is most obvious

[Ivegotaheadache]

Of course they are fortunate to be both , and I'm not keen on half caste because that doesn't actually mean anything, well not to describe someone as being mixed races or colours anyway. But I like mixed race because it does sort of describe it without having to go into too much detail. I think you are right to teach then about the asian side, and maybe if they are very fair they will be taken as white, it will probably be difficult to identify them as being even part asian. My father is pakistani and I don't look asian so I would have to be very aware of ever saying the word paki (not that I would). My dh is Irish and hates the word as his children are part pakistani (though very pale with blue eyes) and it would be a slur on them and me too. Tbh, because of how I look, I wasn't really accepted by the asians as being one of them, even being half wasn't good enough. All my friends are actually white, and what I am has never ever been an issue. This is not of course indicative of the whole asian community, just my experience growing up in London. Sorry no paragraphs, the enter key doesn't seem to work, ds has worked his magic!

[Starbear]

DH is a dad now and has to change his language around his child and all children and ask his friends to do the same. We don't accept the same language in our house as my DH uses on the Football terraces or I use at work. Sell it to him as time and place, Good manners etc.. Not a big issue to him. BUT to me it huge.. I am mixed race Pakistani/ Spanish and this word was used before I got punched (in the face once) by older kids and once by a adult. My colleagues would be out of a job and into the courts if they used any racist terms even in a friendly manner. Pls ask DH to read this thread.

[littleducks]

yes, the majoriy of pakistani preschoolers* either dont speak any english yet or it is there second language so is weaker whereas dds english is excellent for her age and her urdu, well, extremly weak

both dh and i arent keen on the whole mixed race/half caste language (so we must be totally at odds we everyone on here in terms of offensive and non offensive terms) and tend to just refer to the kids of both, ie instead of being a half of this and a half of that they are fortunate enough to be both

ds is probably fairer than dd as he is six months and still has that baby skin tone iykwim

*disclaimer that i know, in our area

[Ivegotaheadache]

I agree onager, but most people won't stop and ask some one who is white with blond hair adn blue eyes if they are asian before getting upset if they hear them saying what is considered a racist remark! I know that asian and black people do call each other by these names and they can call each other what they like, but it's just not right for others to say that to or about them, and paki is usually used as a rscist insult.

[Ivegotaheadache]

I just think to call your ds a little paki is giving him a label and is ignoring his heritage from your side (I'm assuming you're English), he's not pakistani he's half. And is it that your ds is a little darker than your dd, that your dh would say that to him, and not dd? Because if your ds is a paki, your dd is just the same. God, it sounds awful saying that word like this, but I know that it was said to your ds in a loving endearment, which is why I'm using it! Do you mean by the language that the other children don't speak English and that's how your dd is different to them? Not sure what you mean by that!

[onager]

It is true that they will 'see' a child who appears to be very white saying an extremely racist word and that they will be horrified and disgusted.

The lesson there is 'If you hear someone saying something you think is meant to be racist then don't jump to conclusions'

It's always best to get the full facts before getting upset.