To alllow my dd (age 2) to use the word paki?

[littleducks]

ok i will admit thread title is deliberatly provocative (the other thread this morning has spurred me to ask) but the issue is this:

dh is british born pakistani, he uses the word paki, to describe himself and members of family mostly jokingly

he thinks dd should be allowed to say paki, i suppose in a 'reclaiming the word' way

I'm not so sure, dd is pale, blond with blue/green eyes, if you saw her alone/with me you wouldnt guess her cultural heritage and i fear she may offend someone, be told off especially at nursery/infant school as she grows older but doesnt understand about different terms for different audiences iyswim

dh sees my point but at the same time feels that as it is a term used by pakistani/british asian children (admitedly older pre teen and teenagers) i am in fact isolating her from her peers and will make it difficult for her to realise her identity

so am i being to smug and middle class?

oh this is hard isn't it. you are caught between your DH being ok with it (as is his right), and your DD who will not understand it for a long time yet.....not in the way your DH wants her to at least.

I think, going on how you have described it, you need to go with your wants for your DD. she is the one who will run the risk of offending people at nursery/school, which will reflect onto you, and not in a good way.

sensitive subjest, and one I am sure being played in many households across the country now that there are many more relationships with people of different cultures. My DB is one, his wife is czech (he grew up in prague with his adopted family), and many of her customs are different to those he has. It will make things harder for them both now they have children as he thinks one way is 'right', she thinks something completely different.

BUT....this is how we grow and learn and understand. sometimes we become very close-minded to other cutlture for fear of offending them, and yet, the more we fear it, in fact, the more we do IYGWIM.

No, no, no. YABU

Culturally this is deemed to be a racist term. Even if your DP is trying to 'reclaim' the word, most people will not be comfortable with it. My brother was engaged to a Sri-lankin girl and he used to call her his 'wee paki' which he thought was funny. It made me sick and to be honest I think she tolerated it rather than being amused by it.

It is the sort of issue that should be kept away from little kids as you should be teaching about the generic rather than differences at that age IMO. Small children think in terms of 'i'm pink/ white/ yellow/ brown' etc and not 'i'm british/ i'm asian/ i'm chinese' etc. Why perpetuate the use of the word at all?

SGM - being a smug, White middle class type ;) I've just done a bit of googling around the subject, and from what I could tell, it now seems largely accepted that the term 'eskimo' means 'snow shoe netter' - which is much less offensive.

Furthermore, in Alaska the word is still used, as the Eskimos there don't speak the Inuit language, so don't want to called Inuits.

For me, paki's up there with nigger, darkie, wog, yid, gippo, ho, kraut and frog, and not very nice altogther.

It would freak me out, hearing any of these from the lips of a toddler.

I really don't think reclaiming them in an 'ironic' sense is possible or desirable.

She is too young atm to understand that things she can say too her dad and cousins cannot be said to strangers or acquaintances. It is unreasonable to expect her to be able to tell the difference and it could lead to a whole heap of trouble at school. I wouldn't be asking her over for a play date if she was going to use racist words against my family due to her sense of entitlement. I do know where you are coming from, DH and I use racist language to each other at home, in private but not in front of anyone else, esp the children.

I am white caucasian and i would find it offensive/uncomfortable if someone used the term around me, let alone to describe them selves.

my friends family used to use it alot to describe themselves when i used to go over her house from school and i never knew what to say, felt very awkward and in the end stopped going over

I agree with your DH to some extent. I think the term paki in itself is OK, it describes someone from pakistani origin. This is the same as calling a Scott a Scott, an Australian an Aussie, or a Brit a Brit.

BUT and there is a huge BUT, paki is now principally used as a derrogative term so it is a word that makes me really REALLY uncomfortable.

I wouldn't let your DD use it, i think as you say, it is a little provocative and could cause her problems. I think it is niave of your DH to think he is reclaiming the word, that would be like saying it is ok to say cunt, because i am reclaiming the word.

It is a bit like black people calling each other the N word, that makes me cringe too - it is a racist word, actually that is, for me, the most abhorrant word in the english language. I have been the indirectly the victim of racial abuse because my mother has a medical conditin that makes her appear black. My DD has been called a "paki lover" at school because her best friends are from bangladesh , we live in a predominantly white area.

I am genuinely interested to hear what asian posters feel about this? Of course there may be loads of asian posts on here already, but i can't see through the screen

Maybe you could show this thread to your DH and the total negative response might make him see that it is not really OK. He doesn't have a problem with it, that is great.

I am part Asian, my dad was from Pakistan (although it was India then!)

We have never, ever used the word.

I don't think you should encourage her to use it tbh.

your husband may well want to "reclaim" the word, use it to describe himself and generally not have a problem with it.

however, there are many, many people who DO find it offensive and would be very upset to be referred to as a paki.
thus, it would be common courtesy (at the very least) NOT to use it.

Your DH is being unreasonable I would not let a 2yr old use the term Paki as she is to young to understand why its ok to say it to some people not to others and if someone out of a circle said it to your DH i am sure he would be offended.

I think it is hard for him, I'm allowed to say I'm a Brit if i want and we seriously dont know anybody who finds it offensive as a stand alone word who is actually pakistani, or of pakistani origin.

I think i will talk to dh and point out the nursery thing, and i know his first reaction will be a fgs! one but i can see that in order to protect her from racist bullying it needs to be a word not tolerated at school.

but Brit is not and never has been used purposefully as a derogative term.
Paki has, and still is in most areas.

I understand that your husband doesn't have a problem with the word, but that doesn't mean other people don't either.

it IS offensive and it IS likely to cause offence if your child goes around referring to people as pakis.
that's just the way it is.

if he wants to use his 2 year old as a tool in "reclaiming" this word then he's an idiot. because it won't make her life a very happy one

and it's all well and good saying that no-one you know who is pakistani finds it offensive.

but a 2 year old, 4 year old, 8 year old etc etc cannot be expected to tell, by looking at someone, whether they are from pakistan or not, can she?
which means it will become a blanket term applied to all people of Asian origin, who she sees as being the same as other "pakis" she knows.

mercy- what do you say?
I think it is a caught between two cultures thing, which i seen as unfair atm. but as she grows we will have to become accustomed to it and i suppose the benefits will hopefully out weigh the problems for her.

I may class 'paki' as the same level as slang for now, not a word we will use, one we will replace with the proper word when others use and let the full story wait till she is older.

And i think it will have to be like that as we are in England not Pakistan and it isnt one culture overiding the other for now.

I suppose it doesnt help that i am too young to remember many race problems, perhaps if i was older i would see it differently

don't think it is appropriate for such a young child to use a word when they do not know the implications for the people hearing it

it's a bit like kids who are sworn at day in, day out and who have no idea that the words they routinely use at home would shock most people.

does anyone remember the post about a mother who was shocked when a GP refered to "mongoloid" features, a correct, if old fashioned term. MOST people nowadays would find the term Paki just as offensive regardless of the individuals background, because of its history as an abusive word.

Most Pakistani people I have known HATE the term, it is still used in some areas especially schools, as a term of abuse and form of bullying - why would DP want your Dc tied up with all that?

Well in my case my dad's family are actually Anglo-Indian (which is not the same as half English, half Indian) who happened to live in what is now Pakistan.

We just refer to ourselves as part Asian as it can be confusing for most people, plus I don't want to explain it every time.

thisisyesterday-i dont think it is fair for you to say my dh is an idiot.

I am the one who said 'reclaimed' as i am trying to explain why it isnt an issue, i dont think dh would say that but to him he has heard this term from a young age and has been allowed to use it and has never been an issue, as he is obv asian. However times have changed and so i dont want to make dds life difficult, that is why i started this thread. But sometimes i do feel that my white, middleclass background may make me over sensitive to these issue, in this case maybe not!

why is eskimo racist? and if it is, why is it in so many childrens books?

I think the complexities of it are too much for a child to understand at this age, it's sort of passing on a chip on the shoulder to the next generation. I wouldn't use the term and let the child decide when they're older and are making their own decision on it.

ok, well it is at best pretty naive of him to think that her use of the word will not affect her.

as has been said already it WILL be seen as racist and if he is happy with her being branded a racist as a child then, well, you may not call it idiotic, but I am struggling for a better word to use.

I had kind of same situatuion when I was a kiid About 4YO

My mum took me too the local corner shop and we knew the owner really well because we used to go along all the time, so one day I asked him why his skin was a different colour but luckily he sat me down and said he was from another country called pakistan and people from there are called 'paki's' my mum was a bit horrified but because he had said it she didnt want to say anything. So basically from then on I went around and anyone who was the same colour including my adoptive cousins who are maltese But it was normal to me unfortunately as I got older I realise it is a term which is looked upon as racist but I have to admit to this day I still use the word but never infront of DS and now I knwo who Im describing.

Littleducks - I thnk you are right, and your DH needs to think more about the real world contet of you little girl. he may well find it ok for him but that is totally differnt to launching his little dd into a world where she doesn't yet understand the currency of the language she has been given.

DP is asian - he often refers to himself and DS as 'desai' (sp?) - a kind of catch all 'amongst ourselves' word which lots of people from S Asia seem to recognise and is not offensive. At least, my friend of Pakistani muslim origin turned and laughed in surprised recognition when DS said it when she was there - and DP's background is v different from hers. DP's friends often refer to themselves as desai amongst themselves. See if he would adopt that, instead, if h wants a word to be a sort of 'in-joke' identity thing with her.

I think your DH needs to think about how he uses the word in front of his kids, because if they use it, it will definitely be regarded as racist, and I'm sure that's not what he wants.

There are plenty of other things that adults avoid doing/talking about in front of kids, because it may be OK for adults, but the kids are not mature enough to handle it. He should think of it in that sort of context.