To alllow my dd (age 2) to use the word paki?

[littleducks]

ok i will admit thread title is deliberatly provocative (the other thread this morning has spurred me to ask) but the issue is this:

dh is british born pakistani, he uses the word paki, to describe himself and members of family mostly jokingly

he thinks dd should be allowed to say paki, i suppose in a 'reclaiming the word' way

I'm not so sure, dd is pale, blond with blue/green eyes, if you saw her alone/with me you wouldnt guess her cultural heritage and i fear she may offend someone, be told off especially at nursery/infant school as she grows older but doesnt understand about different terms for different audiences iyswim

dh sees my point but at the same time feels that as it is a term used by pakistani/british asian children (admitedly older pre teen and teenagers) i am in fact isolating her from her peers and will make it difficult for her to realise her identity

so am i being to smug and middle class?

So do you think many people in the uk would be offended by it? Obviously I wouldn't want to upset anyone but I've just been teaching my ds to do 'eskimo kisses' and it's really cute!

I kind of thought that Eskimo was a blanket term used to cover indiginous people who lived in arctic regions, the same way Asian is used to describe people from the continent of Asia iyswim. I think i can see why Inuk and Inuit people would prefer to be called by their proper name - is it sort of the same as preferring to be called English rather than European?

Littleducks- your DD isn't your DHs 'little paki' she's your daughter too and whilst her skin tone may darken as she gets a little bit older , to call her his little paki dismisses your cultural heritage. By all means, as she gets older introduce the rich political/cultural/social aspects of both sides of her ancestry, for the meantime celebrate holidays pertinent to both of your upbringings, but I wouldn't let her be labelled as anything other than your dd at the moment.

a perspective and sense of belonging to your ancestry is important as you grow up - she will need both sides, not just one or the other.

Is their a blanket term for Inuit/Inuk etc people. Obv if you don't have vast experience you wouldn't know by looking. We are han chinese, specifically hakka han but chinese is the blanket term. It is difficult to know very specific ethnic groups from just looking. (there is a website where you can guess if someone is chinese, japanese or korean. Its almost impossible even if you are brought up in one of those countries). There are 56 ethnic groups in china but all are chinese.

We were taught at school to say inuit instead of eskimo and about 2-3 years ago I learned that that was incorrect in the way that saying german for all Europeans would be. I'm surprised how many people didn't know it was racist but then again I've seen people say chinky plenty times on here.

I'm white. My mother is Indian. I don't look remotely Indian, although I am Indian as much as white IYSWIM.

If I used the term 'paki' I'd get bashed (probably by DP, who's also half Asian - and looks very Asian). And little though I condone violence, I reckon I'd deserve it.

im not sure i quite understand persephone's reasoning, what do you mean by holidays we should celebrate st. georges day and pakistan independence day??

I assume that by the word "holidays" Persephone means religious festivals, and I think she means to teach her about, and celebrate, the cultural heritage of both her parents and not just be defined by her father's race in the way which calling her a "little paki" defines her. You talk about isolating her from her peers and making it difficult to realise her identitiy, but her identity isn't only that of her father.

It's right that she should be taught about her roots, but that particular word isn't going to help her in any way to "realise her identity" right now. There is plenty of time to teach her about her roots when she is old enough to assimilate the information and make sense of it - and when she is old enough to make her own mind up whether or not she uses racist terminology to describe herself.

haven't read the whole thread but if anyone says "Chinky" within earshot of Mr Wong he will rip their throats out (with a single look)

However, if your dh says it and is reclaiming the word then it's OK for him, but your dd could run in to problems

MInefield indeed

I really think your husband is naive to encourage to use such a word as "paki" at an early age. She is too young to know when its appriopate and when it isn't.

In many schools using the word "paki" would result in the child being suspeneded. Certainly the child would be severely punished. You are preparing her for the outside world where such language is not OK.

A local gang calls themselves PBD ( Pakki boys dem) and they certainly address one another as Pakki but it still makes my liberal heart curdle.

I'm amazed that your DD has a) recognised there is any difference and b) can verbalise it. I'm not sure my 2 year old even notices colour differences. As for the use of the word. No. I think it'd be awful regardless of who you were.

yes, Litchick but why would anyone follow the example of gang culture as the touchstone as to what is acceptable?

Ginger, mine were aware of skin colour difference at around 2 and would ask me. Maybe they are more likely to notice when one parent has a different skin colour to the rest of the immediate family.

Dh and i share the same religion

I will however take this to mean i MUST celebrate bonfire night and teach dd about apple bobbing, which is probably at the level of a two year old.

DD has only said the word once and was corrected by myself to 'happy'. I spoke to dh this and although he does see it as political correctness gone mad in one respect, does understand the problems it could cause for her which is obv not worth it.

He will try to avoid it in front of the kids, and i dont think it should be hard apart from saying the paki shop it isnt an everyday term and we will just use the term that dd uses for that particular shop, and ignore it if dd hears the owners/customers calling it the paki shop.

get your husband to read this it might change his mind about the iea of reclaiming the word...

AS WWB said, I mean anything that either of your families traditionally celebrate - xmas, if you come from a christian background, eid if your husband has a muslim background - if you would normally celebrate st georges day or pakistan independence day then go ahead - I wouldn't think one cancels out the other...You can both give your DD the best parts of two different cultures - thats a wonderful opportunity, but you shouldn't let one of your backgrounds be more important - they're both equally valid.

gingerninja- she is 2 and 5 months exactly, is talking about far more complicated things! She is a little chatterbox. She says i am pink and dh i think she once called chocolate!

She definately categorises people by colour, we have the 'pink' lady and 'blue' boy based on their tops, she was talking to me for ages about 'green aunty' (she has lots of called out of politeness, 'aunties') it was only when she said with the dog and the aeroplane I realised she meant 'Aunty Mabel' from come outside on cbeebies!

sorry xposted with you about your and dhs religion kind of destroys my argument a little, so just secularise it

beaniescreamyb- i will pass that on but i think the crucial difference is whereas 'nigga' has connotations with the slave trade, paki actually has the meaning 'pure' in urdu, which was possibly dh first language, was def his home language as a child whereas now he speaks English at home with me

oh and dh sees your article (but hasnt read it yet) and raises you this one

(note to self never tell dh that i am on mumsnet as i will get into a guardian article war!)

the whole 'reclaiming of the word' is a crock of shit. people who use this argument use it because they have never experienced the history of those derogatory words and they are offensive to the people who had to endure the humility those types of words imply. your DH using the word growing up probably began as a coping mechanism but now has become a joking norm. too bad. its a shame really.

even though it comes from an urdu word chefswife? which as an urdu speaker dh would use ie. we clean things to 'pak'

Littleducks - thank you for the article I didn't know Paki was a word meaning 'pure', do Pakistani people use this term a lot in conversation with eachother - I mean in the 'pure' sense? Is that what they are meaning when they use it?

Chefswife, I know a linguist who told me almost 20 years ago that gay men had 'reclaimed' the term queer within their own community.

SGM, re eskimo/inuit/inuk- I've come across the term 'First Nation' to refer to the native peoples of Canada- would that encompass who I think of as Inuit? how is that preceived by the people themselves- I think I found it on some canadian govt site.

(re paki, I really don't think you should allow dd to use this word, at the very least people will recoil, I tink the swearing analogy is good- she is too young to judge the very special circs in which it won't give offence)