To let my 3yo run around shouting in a church...

[alardi]

Obviously not during a service(!).

Here's the scene:
Fine medieval church in a small market town. Sign on church door that says "The church is open to all visitors". It's market day so many people popping in and out to see the architexture, buy a card, light a candle..

I go in with my 3yo DS who likes to run to the back the church, stopping to talk shout about things on the way, then run back to the front area (near the door), where the children's door is so that he can look at books, play with Noah's Ark toys there, etc. He tends to shout when he speaks at all, so from a stranger's perspective, you could say he's running and shouting...

As he runs back, a sour faced old bat old lady sitting in the pews, stands up and shrieks speaks sternly "Excuse me, this is not a playground!"

So I apologised and left...DS kept asking why we had to leave and I said it was because the miserable old hag old lady didn't like children.

But I haven't set foot in the church since, don't want to cause offense, can't get over the feeling that churches are really only for the old and solemn and miserable, not for lively young children.

Or was I outrageous to ever take my unruly DS in, especially as we are contented, resolute unbelievers? I just felt the church was part of DS's heritage and even if we are slack secularists humanists, I didn't want churches/religion to seem like a foreign culture to DC (hence why we used to visit the church fairly frequently).

Go find a softplay centre if you want to play out of the rain.

Yes, Jesus wanted the children to 'come unto' him...but not at the detriment of other worshippers wanting some peace when they are in prayer!

You noticed people coming and going, but you didn't notice her praying/sitting for quiet reflection?

Nice to hear that anyone who doesn't like your dc's behaviour is a miserable old bag.

Have we finished voting now? Is the OP officially bonkers? has she understood the notion of respect ?

I've seen some mad notions on MN over the years but this one has really topped them all.

Soft play centre costs money, Skramble. The church is free to guests.

Lots of places are free but you still have to act appropriately and respectfully.

it's not right that others have to suffer because you won't pay out a couple of quid

YABU. Teh woman is right; a church is not a playground. Have some respect and teach your DS how to do the same.

YABU. Teh woman is right; a church is not a playground. Have some respect and teach your DS how to do the same.

I do not think children should always be entirely silent in church, but I do think 3yo (I have one) is old enough to begin learning about appropriate behaviour. In a church we walk rather than run and, while we can lookat things in the church and ask questions about them, we try to speak fairly quietly rather than shout.

I have recently stopped attending our church's morning 'family' Eucharist (a church I have been going to for years and do voluntary work for) because there is clearly a great deal of conflict and insecurity about how to deal with young children (too young for Children's Church, as my ds1 still is really and ds2 certainly is) and the balance seems to be tipping towards 'shunt them and their parents off into a side room to follow the service over loudspeaker'. Tbh I'd rather leave it as I don't feel a true part of it then and it makes me cross that parents are expected to leave the service pre-emptively. I go to the evening Eucharist every couple of weeks instead, leaving dc with (non-believer) dh. So I am entirely sympathetic to children in church, and the lady in the OP worded her complaint rather unfelicitously, but I do feel it not entirely appropriate to accuse anyone who objects to children running and shouting in a church of unchristian child-hating.

"the balance seems to be tipping towards 'shunt them and their parents off into a side room to follow the service over loudspeaker'."

I often think that, like the trend for excluding children from cafes and other events e.g. child-free weddings, this is because of the attitude expressed by a minority on this thread that their precious darlings' exuberance should not be contained, no matter how it impacts on others. That minority can prevent other sections of the community from being able to take part fully e.g. I can't actually hear the morning service at my local church over the sound of lots of children playing. If parents do their best to teach their children to behave appropriately there is no need for segregation.

On MN it is often mentioned that other countries are more child-friendly. I've noticed that children in the same countries are more adult-friendly - they are expected to behave themselves and other members of the community feel able to correct them when they don't.

I don't think that the OP is bonkers; she is at best unthinking and at worst selfish.
People visit churches for all sorts of reasons, not all of them are there for the building, they are there for their spiritual needs and that should be respected.

It wasn't a church service so I don't think we need to get into how a DC should behave during the service or how the church should welcome/cater for them.
The OP took him in because it is a lovely old building and part of his culture/heritage. She could make the visit as long or as short as she wanted.

Before she took him in she should have explained:

1. The purpose of the building.
2. Why other people might be there.
3. How to behave.

At 3yrs it is perfectly possible to understand that you have to behave differently in different places.

If OP knew that she had an exuberant DS who would find it difficult she could have made it into a game-who can tiptoe the quietest etc. She had the option of taking him out as soon as he was bored.

More empathy could have been given to the 'old bat'! She may normally be the kindest lady imaginable but she may have come straight from hospital, having been told she had terminal cancer, to find spiritual solace. There are any number of reasons why she might have snapped at a noisy child.

There seems to be the assumption that Christians should put up with bad behaviour! 'Suffer the little children'has come up a lot. This was said by Jesus, who in this situation would probably have gone on to have a friendly chat with the little children to explain why they should treat the building with respect. He didn't mean that all adults have to put up with badly behaved children!

If you visited a mosque you would have to take off your shoes, you couldn't get away with saying 'He is only 3 and his shoes are clean and we are not believers anyway'. In a Christian church you are not asked to anything other than treat it with respect and to wander around quietly. I don't think it is too much to ask of a 3 yr old when you have the option of taking him out at any point.

YANBU god forbid your child made a bit of noise in the church maybe next time you visit there just let him no not to shout so much.

Keep taking your child to the church and admire it

Ooooo how I wish I had a silent child like some of the other posters on here

I agree with mrsmattie I am sure god is not bothered if a child makes a bit of noise in the church because if he did he wouldnt of given us voices or the capabilty to shout

Everyone can have a silent DC for 5 minutes if they talk to them first. I have taken a whole class of 5 yr olds into a church to do drawings etc and they were a mixed bunch in terms of behaviour. You give them your expectations first. It is very simple with one or two children you merely take them out if they can't do it! You have rights to go into churches. No one gets rights without responsibilities, and as a parent your responsibility is to get them to behave respectfully. If you can't do it-don't take them in.

ping, this isn't about what God is bothered about. How would anyone presume to say they knew what God thought

This is about the people who use the church as a haven from the noise and frenzy of everyday life. The vast majority of people go there for peace and quiet

Please note I am only now reading all posts BRB as i may change my mind on what I have said.

Spot on Upwind

During services at my church kids can run around - how else are we to encourage families to come? The only exception is during prayers and the sermon - some quiet is needed then.

I even breastfeed my twins during services. I have to cos they feed at 10.30am and that is when the service is - I know God would rather I was there even if it means getting my boobs out to feed.

I don;t think you are being totally unreasonable. The woman who spoke to you did not have to be so rude, she could have just asked politely if you would quieten your LO. She didn;t act in a very Christian way IMO.

Pingping, that's a very feeble argument. Whilst we have been given (whether by God or not I dunno as am fence-sitting agnostic) the ability to shout, we have also been given the ability to keep quiet. And children should be taught self-restraint and respect for others. There are not many places left in our society where people can go for quiet reflection. Churches happen to be one of these places. On here it sounds like some people place the needs of a 3 year old far above the needs of everybody else. That is a recipe for producing a spoilt, self-centred adult with no capacity for taking any account of anyone else's needs. That's not my aim as a parent.

Other countries have a much better attitude with DCs because they are well behaved. If they go out for a meal they sit down and the adults talk to the DCs. It is relaxed and you don't have to worry about DCs running around and shouting. It is very annoying to have your time out spoilt by a badly behaved DC whose parents won't control it. If the lady in the church had made her request politely OP would probably still have taken offence at anyone daring to censure her DC.

To those who pointed out (correctly) that Jesus said "Suffer the little children to come unto me ..." - He also said "Love your neighbour as yourself" - which means putting the needs of others first - which the OP didn't do - she put her needs and those of her child above the needs of anyone in that church who had gone in for quiet prayer and contemplation. Of course, as I and others have said, the elderly lady had a responsibility to be more tactful and polite when addressing the issue. I suspect she had sat there, getting crosser until she reached the point where she HAD to say something, and it might have been better had she said something earlier on. Perhaps she thought she might get a load of abuse from the mum if she asked for the child to be quieter.

MrsMattie - you spoke of the evils of supernanny style discipline and expecting three-year-olds to behave like much older children. Whilst I agree that our expectations of our children have to be realistic, surely we DO have to expect more of our children than they are currently capable of - that's how they improve.

Presumeably there's an age at which you think a child will be able to understand that you have to be quieter in some places than others, and that running/shouting aren't appropriate in some places - but surely you introduce the concept earlier, as something to aspire to, and by example and repitition, the child grows into that ability.

Isn't this what we do with all the skills our children learn? Before a child is old enough to read, we are showing them books, reading to them, showing them how to turn the pages, discussing the pictures with them - it's all part of the process of learning to read - you don't leave all that until your child reaches the correct age to read, otherwise they'll be way behind.

And surely consideration for others, whatever the circumstance/situation, is a skill that needs teaching as much as any other skill? However, I do think it's a skill that needs learning by the older generation too. I have lost count of the times that I have seen appalling manners on the part of older/elderly people - the same people who tut about the bad manners of 'young people today.'

You don't know that for sure AbbeyA, the OP may well have thought 'oh yes, actually that woman wants to have some quiet time' if the woman had asked politely.

There was no need for her to be rude.

MN can be a horrible place sometimes...

'Have we finished voting now? Is the OP officially bonkers? has she understood the notion of respect ? I've seen some mad notions on MN over the years but this one has really topped them all.'

Can't we all just have an adult discussion without it descending into spiteful comments?

Yes I suppose we could have an adult conversation

Sorry YABU

It would be interesting to replace '3 year old' with '15 year old' in this context. If a teenager was tearing about in a church and shouting, would it be considered ok? I doubt it.

So why should it be ok for a 3 year old to do so without any attempt made by the parent to quieten him down?

Yes, a teenager should know better, but how is the 3 year old to learn how to behave if noone tells him? If we waited until our children were old enough to know better before teaching them, we'd have real problems.

Imo, you should always at least tell your children the correct way to behave once they've reached the age where they can understand what you mean. Where age comes into it is in determining what you do if/when they don't behave.

Possibly the old lady was most annoyed not with the child but with the OP for doing nothing to restrain her child? I would be thinking 'why doesn't she at least try and keep him a bit quieter'.

Neenztwinz-possibly you haven't had a life experience that has left you totally shattered. If you are in deep shock you feel as if you are on a different planet from everyone else, probably I would ask nicely but I can understand people snapping. OP was just going in to look at the building on a perfectly normal weekday-it may not have been the case for the old lady-she may have been literally at the end of her tether.

Small children are perfectly capable of quite advanced conversation. I wouldn't want to take a nursery class into a church service, but I am confident that I could take a whole class of 3 yr olds in for a 10 minute look round and get them to feel the awe and wonder.
I wouldn't just go in with no preparation. We would talk about it first and get their ideas. We would talk about behaviour and why they had to have quiet voices and walking. We might even practise quiet voices.
I would hold the hands of any DC who might have a problem.
I think you would then find that all the adult 'child-haters' were then smiling and saying 'how sweet' and talking to them and answering questions.
The DS in OP is not at fault- he can't be expected just to 'know' how to behave-his mother should tell him.