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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To let my 3yo run around shouting in a church...

461 replies

alardi · 21/10/2008 17:56

Obviously not during a service(!).

Here's the scene:
Fine medieval church in a small market town. Sign on church door that says "The church is open to all visitors". It's market day so many people popping in and out to see the architexture, buy a card, light a candle..

I go in with my 3yo DS who likes to run to the back the church, stopping to talk shout about things on the way, then run back to the front area (near the door), where the children's door is so that he can look at books, play with Noah's Ark toys there, etc. He tends to shout when he speaks at all, so from a stranger's perspective, you could say he's running and shouting...

As he runs back, a sour faced old bat old lady sitting in the pews, stands up and shrieks speaks sternly "Excuse me, this is not a playground!"

So I apologised and left...DS kept asking why we had to leave and I said it was because the miserable old hag old lady didn't like children.

But I haven't set foot in the church since, don't want to cause offense, can't get over the feeling that churches are really only for the old and solemn and miserable, not for lively young children.

Or was I outrageous to ever take my unruly DS in, especially as we are contented, resolute unbelievers? I just felt the church was part of DS's heritage and even if we are slack secularists humanists, I didn't want churches/religion to seem like a foreign culture to DC (hence why we used to visit the church fairly frequently).

OP posts:
AbbeyA · 21/10/2008 22:51

'YANBU to be upset at the way the woman spoke to you. She could have done the grown-up thing and spoken to you kindly, treated you like a human being. She deserves a good talking to.'

The poor woman-she may have had her worse nightmare happen-you have no idea what she is going through and yet she is supposed to smile tolerantly at a child who has not been told to walk and talk quietly!
It isn't too much to explain to a small child that it is not a place to run around in and that they can run and shout as soon as they get outside. I have taken a whole class of 5 yr olds and they haven't had a problem with it.
Society would look more kindly upon children if their parents made sure that they were well behaved when appropriate.

ladymariner · 21/10/2008 22:52

Yes mrsmattie, in church they should.

tortoiseshellWasMusicaYearsAgo · 21/10/2008 22:52

I suspect if the OP had been showing the child the church, and holding his hand and letting him explore the church gently then a bit of noise wouldn't have been a problem, but perhaps charging from one end to the other is more of a problem.

MrsThierryHenry · 21/10/2008 22:52

oops, morocco! Think I got a bit forthright!

Maybe I should read the OP again, but I got the impression that she popped in at a time when the church was opened for anyone to come in to have a look around? i.e. there was an open invitation, and there wasn't a service going on?

I think it's unreasonable of some people on this post to expect a 3 yo to sit still and quietly. I believe the OP's DS is 3.

Also - and this is NOT personal as I don't know the children of anyone in this post - some children who sit quietly all the time do so because their parents are rather too controlling. I shall say no more on the matter.

MrsMattie · 21/10/2008 22:53

Calm down, people, for God's pity's sake.

sunnygirl1412 · 21/10/2008 22:53

I'm with Littlemydancing and tortoiseshell, to be honest. It would have been better if you had got your son to speak rather than shout and walk rather than run. It's a matter of balancing the needs of you and your child with the needs of the other users of the church - I don't think that it's unreasonable that everyone should compromise a bit so that all can make reasonable use of the church - and it doesn't sound like you were willing to compromise your son's behaviour at all - his needs took precedence over other people's. Is three years old too young to teach him a bit of thought for others?

HOWEVER, I also agree with the earlier poster who said that the elderly lady who spoke to you should have approached the matter a little more politely - perhaps saying: 'Please could your son be a bit quieter as I am having a moment of quiet prayer - thank-you.'

I've taken three year old boys to church and to museums and art galleries, and I expected them to behave appropriately - we didn't always succeed, but the expectation of appropriate behaviour was there, and the boys have grown up knowing that sometimes lowered voices and quiet steps are thoughtful to others. We've ended up going round some museums/galleries/cathedrals pretty fast - skipping past the bits that didn't interest them so that we didn't exceed their boredom threshold too much.

Perhaps next time you take him in there, you could have a plan - tell him you are going to start with a look at the lecturn (with the eagle, was it?), then you are going to walk to the books and find something to read. Explain to him how church is a fairly quiet place.

Mumi · 21/10/2008 22:54

I did draw the line at my 4 year old DS, shouting about his willy at a friend's christening then dancing on the tombs when I took him outside but otherwise, no, YANBU

AbbeyA · 21/10/2008 22:55

It is too much to expect a DC to sit silently all through a service but if you take them in for a look round you explain first what it is and how you behave. You whisper yourself and make them whisper back. You can make it like a game with tiptoes. They will understand but only if you explain.

MrsMattie · 21/10/2008 22:56

ROTFL@Mumi

Tut tut tut. No respect. Asbo. Lazy parenting. Go to softplay instead... etc etc etc blah blah blah...

ladymariner · 21/10/2008 22:57

Don't think its a case of children having to sit quietly all the time, ds certainly doesn't, but just when its appropriate.
In the instance the op was talking about then the child should not have benn running about, imo she was being very unreasonable.

AbbeyA · 21/10/2008 22:57

Perhaps the old lady was facing the biggest trauma in her life and wasn't up to thinking before she spoke! You have absolutely no idea what was going on in her life.

kormAaaarrrggghhhchameleon · 21/10/2008 23:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsMattie · 21/10/2008 23:04

I'm really bored of this topic now.

Of course children should be taught to behave well. Doesn't mean they always will, though, especially at the age of 3 yrs old.

kormAaaarrrggghhhchameleon · 21/10/2008 23:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsMattie · 21/10/2008 23:07

Taught - yes. Expected - no.

falcon · 21/10/2008 23:07

I wouldn't always expect a 3 year old to behave,they are still very young and still exploring the word around them and have very little impulse control. It's how the parent handles it that matters imo.

BlackEyedDog · 21/10/2008 23:08

I'm feeling sorry for the lady. She probably hated speaking out like that to you and I bet her pondering was thereafter ruined by thinking to herself 'Oh for fucks sake now I sound just like my Grandmother - I bet that girl thinks I'm a right sourfaced old twit.'

Churches are strange and quiet places I think. I like that about them, so I get ds to shut up a bit when we are in one. Church is a place where some people like to be silent and find a bit of peace, don't make a villain out of somebody doing just that.

ssshhhh

handlemecarefully · 21/10/2008 23:12

I think you should attempt to quell some of ds's exuberance. Not everyone appreciates shouting....plus shouting and running in a church could be construed as disrespectful

However, I do agree that old lady sounds like a sour old baggage....

handlemecarefully · 21/10/2008 23:13

I haven't read any of the rest of thread btw - 167 posts is beyond my stamina level

Quattrocento · 21/10/2008 23:14

Ah. The old lady failed to suffer little children. Don't blame her personally. Churches (like many other places, including Starbucks, hospitals, funerals, concerts, plays, museums, shops and restaurants) are not playgrounds.

If we allow all this relentless bad behaviour right to self-expression, we'll raise a society full of rampant egotists with no respect for others. Won't we?

Why not take the child to a playground for a couple of hours, tire him out, then take him to one of the places where people expect children to behave? That seems like a fair deal.

MrsMattie · 21/10/2008 23:17

It's funny. My take on 'society's ills' these days seems to be completely different from some of you. I see far more parents implementing crappy Supernanny-style discipline than I do indulging their children...as if by 'expecting' 3 yr olds to behave like much older children we are somehow doing them a great service. Bollocks, I say.

must go to bed now.

Skramble · 21/10/2008 23:19

I ain't much of a church goer but I expect people to show a bit of respect and although a 3 yr old might not quite get it the parent should and encourage child to be quieter and not run around,

I am all for kids exploring and all that but get a grip its a church not a playground and children do need to learn respect and appropriate behaviour for all kinds of circumstances, you don't wait untilt ehy are older then expect them to take it in then.

expatinscotland · 21/10/2008 23:21

'If we allow all this relentless bad behaviour right to self-expression, we'll raise a society full of rampant egotists with no respect for others. Won't we?'

True, but in the present tense rather than the subjunctive.

nooka · 21/10/2008 23:32

The OP seems to be under the impression that the church is a playground ("somewhere for her ds to explore"). I don't think the old lady in question was rude, nor would I come to the conclusion that she didn't like children (a bit sweeping that). I think the first post is actually a bit disengenous, as later on she says that she only really goes to the church as the playground is not available (presumably it is always raining when she is in town).

My children had the tendancy to run and shout (still do), and if we visited a church (not a frequent occurence) and they were too boisterous I would either sit them down and persuade them that a church is a special place (I too am an aetheist, but was brought up Catholic) or leave. As they have grown older they understand the cultural aspects, why people believe etc, but even at three I think they would have understood the concept of "quiet time".

Housemum · 22/10/2008 00:18

I take my DDs (not that regularly) to church, and I do not expect them to sit like Victorianc hildren (because I don't beat the crap out of them till they are silent!) but if any of them had started running around they would have been taken out sharpish to let off steam outside! And if visiting a church just for a nose, I would expect a young child to be a bit noisy, or to ask loud (or even "inappropriate" to some) questions, btu not to be running around.

So if for instance your DS was pointing things out in a loud voice, the lady woudl have been unreasonable to get so cross, but if he was running around he was obviously not in the mood to be there so try another day.