To let my 3yo run around shouting in a church...

[alardi]

Obviously not during a service(!).

Here's the scene:
Fine medieval church in a small market town. Sign on church door that says "The church is open to all visitors". It's market day so many people popping in and out to see the architexture, buy a card, light a candle..

I go in with my 3yo DS who likes to run to the back the church, stopping to talk shout about things on the way, then run back to the front area (near the door), where the children's door is so that he can look at books, play with Noah's Ark toys there, etc. He tends to shout when he speaks at all, so from a stranger's perspective, you could say he's running and shouting...

As he runs back, a sour faced old bat old lady sitting in the pews, stands up and shrieks speaks sternly "Excuse me, this is not a playground!"

So I apologised and left...DS kept asking why we had to leave and I said it was because the miserable old hag old lady didn't like children.

But I haven't set foot in the church since, don't want to cause offense, can't get over the feeling that churches are really only for the old and solemn and miserable, not for lively young children.

Or was I outrageous to ever take my unruly DS in, especially as we are contented, resolute unbelievers? I just felt the church was part of DS's heritage and even if we are slack secularists humanists, I didn't want churches/religion to seem like a foreign culture to DC (hence why we used to visit the church fairly frequently).

YABU.

You need to teach your child how to behave appropriately in all situations. This is about basic socialisation.

Shouting is not appropriate in many indoor places. I am constantly reminding my DD not to shout; perhaps the lady who just wanted some peace and quiet in church would have been happier if she had seen you had made an effort to quieten down your boy.

Personally I hate to see what appears to be out of control children in public areas. Of course a 3 year old is likely to shout, your job is to teach him this is not right, not complain that someone wasn´t happy about his behaviour.

I'm sure if it was the other way round and older folk were hanging round playgrounds being "old and solemn" they'd probably have the police called on them.

Yes YABU. MAny people visit churches for a moment of calm contemplation. They may be grieving or suffering an emotional crisis. Churches are arguably one of the last few places left where people can be still and quiet in a fast-moving, noisy world.

At 3 your child ought to be able to be beginning to work out how to behave differently in different places. If he not there yet, it is your place to make sure that his exuberance is not forced on people who may be at a difficult time of their life.

Would you let him run screaming and shouting around an intensive care unit? That church may be providing a similar level of emotional care to an ICU, and as such people's desire for calm there should be respected. Teach your little one to whisper, for pete's sake, and to walk where appropriate.

YANBU after reading all posts I still agree with you.

Umm if your going to church to pray then go on a day when it isn't open to all vistors

What because maybe that lady was facing a trauma that gives her all rights to the church get real. Maybe just maybe that old woman was just being a miserable bitch and just felt the need to have ago at OP.

Alot of posters on here are being unreasonable commenting on OP's parenting skills etc or maybe just stuck up

OP DS is 3years old not 15 not grown enough to know right from wrong or how to whisper hmmmm

OP please continue to take your child to church let him enjoy himself there maybe as he grows up he wont think church is just for miserable old bags that tell you to ssssssssh.

Yes he is very young but I'm quite sure that the OP is old enough to prevent him from doing so and to teach him how to behave.

Open to all visitors means open for people to pray, wander around admiring the building not open for a shrieking and running session.

And I don't think the woman was particuarly rude, she was right it isn't a playground.

yes u r unreasonable its not a playground

OP I would take it up with your priest/ Vicar see what they say.

yabu.im not religious but am (and teach my children to be)respectful of people and their religions.it was great that you took your dc to a church but its your description in op that sounds rude.especially you telling your dc that the elderly lady 'didnt like children'-how do you know that?how do you know she wasnt grieving,praying,whatever?just because a church is open to public doesnt mean its not used by people who use it regulary.

yabu and rude.

I did use to take my 3yos to places like churches, museums etc- even to the university library. I found if you put enough preparation into it and modelled talking quietly it was usually ok. If you do it in a positive manner, having to be quiet doesn't have to be a dreadful restriction; you can make it into a game. Children who are taught this as another positive skill don't necessarily feel unwelcome.

In Reception, teachers take classes of 4yos to church services and they are expected to be very still. Also not allowed to run around and shout during ordinary assembly etc. Even playschool children from 2 upwards have carpet time when they listen to a story and have to learn not to interrupt. It's a learning experience that I've been quite happy for my children to have had.

I used to take my toddler to big sister's Harvest festival, nativity play etc- obviously, all the children would have been upset if I'd allowed him to run around and shout after they'd put so much work into learning their lines.

Anyway, even if I privately thought the lady was a miserable old bag, I would have thought it more helpful to explain to my ds why she might need quiet- it's about teaching them to deal with the world in a positive way. It may be several years before they can actually do it of their own initiative but I think 3 is a good time for the learning to start.

its not the running round shouting that is unreasonable-its the fact she got all shitty when told it was offending someone.a simple im sorry would have been good.

I also used to take my children to pet shops. I was amazed by the number of parents who clearly thought it was more important for their child to be allowed to express themselves than for the animals not to be stressed out.

YABU learn to control your kid.learn that the world doesn't revolve around you and your kid. and acknowledge that not everyone finds your brats screaming as unbelievably charming as you do.

"I used to take my toddler to big sister's Harvest festival, nativity play etc- obviously, all the children would have been upset if I'd allowed him to run around and shout after they'd put so much work into learning their lines."

Cory, I wonder if all the posters here who think that children should be allowed to run around and express themselves, no matter what the context, would be happy to have lots of other people's children doing just that while their own darling child was staring in a school play

It is fine to let a child explore a church if there is no one there, or if it is busy with flower arrangers, or during a children's service.

But it's very disrespectful of someone who is there to contemplate/pray/grieve to let your toddler intrude on that.

It was the presence of the woman that made the context wrong - and your language shows your lack of respect, I'm afraid.

agree with upwind.my bet is theyd be first to complain.

There's horrible, nasty and offensive comments about this thread about older women. Don't you women realise that will be YOU one day? Or that invisible old crone in the pew will be your daughter?

FGS your all as bad as each other calling her children Brats etc WTF

Anyone would think she took the Devil himself into the church.

OP these people posting are the same people that look down there noses at a mother with a screaming child in the supermarket ignore them

Pingping - no-one is saying that the elderly lady had ALL rights to the church - but you are suggesting that the OP and her child DID!! What is so wrong with teaching a child a bit of consideration for others? He didn't have to be immobile and silent - but quiet voice and walking, not running would not have been unreasonable, in my book, nor should it be impossible for a child that age either!

We all have to learn that we are not the centre of the universe, and that we need to take account of the feelings and needs of others - and three is not too young to be starting to learn that lesson. In fact, I started trying to teach my children to be thoughtful and kind before they were three - sharing toys, not snatching, not hitting etc. Yes, it's a gradual process, but if you aren't introducing these skills a little at a time from the word go, it's going to be a horrible shock for the child when you do finally decide they are old enough to learn social skills and they find out they can't do whatever they want whenever they want!

If expecting a little consideration from the OP is stuck-up, then I'm happy to be stuck-up and I will continue to inflict my horrid, stuck-up restrictions on my children - who, incidentally, visited a stately home and a gallery at the weekend, and behaved very nicely - they enjoyed looking at the artefacts and discussing them (quietly) with us, were a pleasure to be with and didn't cause any hassle to the other people looking round - and they were able to achieve this because we taught them how to behave considerately from an early age.

actually im dont pingping.my dc have tantrums in public places-i ignore,but time and place and all that.how do you teach children respect when the op speaks like that about an elderly lady and lets her dc run riot in place of worship?

And for the record, I don't look down my nose at mums with screaming kids in supermarkets - they have all my sympathy - it's a stressful enough job without children in tow so why would I make it any worse for them??

Pingping, you feel it's OK to call an old lady a 'miserable bitch' yet take offence when people 'look down' on kids?

I totally agree with the poster who said that the old lady will be us one day, indeed it will be our kid one day.

Can I call your mum or your gran an 'old bitch'?

Or is that a bit er, rude and judgemental? You have no idea why that lady was sitting there. It angers me to see such disrespect for the elderly that you can roundly dismiss their views and needs as being irrelevant simply because they're old.

Disgraceful imo.

It isn't to do with having 'all rights' to the church. But a child shouting will render prayer pretty well impossible, so the lady in the pew had any 'right' to the church removed. And she didn't ask the OP to leave, simply to not treat the church as a playground. Which it isn't.

And pingping - saying 'she should go on a day when it isn't open to visitors' - firstly, how would she get in? And secondly, if she NEEDED to pray then, why shouldn't she be able to? Perhaps it was a significant day (death of a loved one?), or she wanted to specially pray for someone who was ill THEN. She shouldn't have to say 'oh, I can't go then, it's playground time' when there are perfectly playgrounds available.

No-one is saying children aren't welcome. But they are saying that behaviour in a church should be appropriate. And of course 3 year olds can learn appropriate behaviour - they have to learn not to run on to roads, so they can learn not to shout in a church.

Right on MP.

We are constantly having this discussion at our church. Haven't found an answer yet. The trouble is that the ones who think children actually in the church should at least be being encouraged to be quiet and listen/look depending on whether a service is on or not, do not on the whole disturb those who like to see children exploring the whole church on their own terms, whereas the latter DO disturb the former. Teach 'em or take 'em out tbh, and that's my cultural birthright as much as anything else is for other people.

NB I have been to quite a few synagogue services and even in the huge Holy Day services when the whole of Berkshire were there there was not the kind of chaos you are talking about. The children were welcome x 300 but starting to learn how to behave in a place of worship. Except for Purim of course, where the whole point was for everyone to behave like children and to make as much noise as possible! (OP, try Purim, you might well enjoy it - don't forget the fancy dress and your football rattle). But Purim is a contrast to other services.