To let my 3yo run around shouting in a church...

[alardi]

Obviously not during a service(!).

Here's the scene:
Fine medieval church in a small market town. Sign on church door that says "The church is open to all visitors". It's market day so many people popping in and out to see the architexture, buy a card, light a candle..

I go in with my 3yo DS who likes to run to the back the church, stopping to talk shout about things on the way, then run back to the front area (near the door), where the children's door is so that he can look at books, play with Noah's Ark toys there, etc. He tends to shout when he speaks at all, so from a stranger's perspective, you could say he's running and shouting...

As he runs back, a sour faced old bat old lady sitting in the pews, stands up and shrieks speaks sternly "Excuse me, this is not a playground!"

So I apologised and left...DS kept asking why we had to leave and I said it was because the miserable old hag old lady didn't like children.

But I haven't set foot in the church since, don't want to cause offense, can't get over the feeling that churches are really only for the old and solemn and miserable, not for lively young children.

Or was I outrageous to ever take my unruly DS in, especially as we are contented, resolute unbelievers? I just felt the church was part of DS's heritage and even if we are slack secularists humanists, I didn't want churches/religion to seem like a foreign culture to DC (hence why we used to visit the church fairly frequently).

To the OP, Starbucks and shops are apparantly more sacred than churches. I suppose that shopping centres are the modern cathedrals where we all pay homage to consumerism and conspicuous consumption...

YABU - the church is to be enjoyed by all and I can well imagine a shouting child will not help those in need of some peace and calm.
I am all for children in churches and accept a degree of noise, but I think running and shouting are not acceptable. I don't really understand why he can't be taught to speak more quietly or walk to the Noah's arc play area...
Surely that would allow everyone to enjoy the church ad its facilities. If running and shouting is really what your son wants to do, perhaps the park may be better...

Ah yes, you must maintain a reverential hush in the beauty section of Harvey Nicks, did you not know? And genuflect when you pass a John Lewis till.

we take dd 15 months to church every week, she dances to the singing and claps her hands, but when she gets restless one of us takes her out to the entrance and she plays with the activity baskets left there specifically for children, she meets lots of nice old ladies who love her and now waves to the vicar in the high street. When the service is over she walks to the front and we show her the flowers but we never let her run about, it's inconsiderate!
YABU

God I hate churches. Just don't take him in there any more. If you aren't "a believer" then what is he missing out on? Churches aren't his heritage.

Yeah, sorry I know I flip flopped. I was always wanting to be in the YANBU camp as I'm all for robust presence of children in church.

The OP made it sound like she sat back while her child ran and that would have been totally unacceptable. I'm giving Alardi the benefit of the doubt that she totally misrepresented herself in her first post, and what she says later that she was walking around with DS talking about the church.

I still don't think the running is acceptable, but if it's really true that she was with her DS all the time he can't really have been running, so I'm going for the charitable interpretation that she was using "run" to mean "walk round in that cute toddler way" which some people do.

FWIW, I don't see there is anything inconsistent with requiring DS not to walk about in Starbucks (which is crowded and has lots of hot drinks on low tables) but letting him walk about in church which is ideally suited to the purpose. The talking in a low voice in Starbucks but shouting in church is a bit weird though, I grant you.

But I will go a long way to give kids in church the benefit of the doubt

Wtf?

He is quiet in Starbucks but not in church. Okaaaaay....

My own issue with the OP is the 'miserable old bat' part of it, and telling the lad it wasn't his behaviour at fault but the lady's attitude.

This kind of guff is the reason why so many public places are hell to visit - nobody hives a hoot for anybody else's peace or privacy, and blames them for being 'miserable' if they don't like it.

AND ANOTHER THING

I'm a relative newbie here but indulge me in making an observation I'm sure has been made before....

Why is it that if 'nobody complains' that is taken as meaning your kid is perfect (in this case, the vicar) but when somebody does complain that means that they are miserable gits? Why is the old lady a miserable old bat? If she had sat there fuming but saying nothing we'd have been back with 'but nobody complained'. Grrr.

If you have to wait for somebody to complain about your kids' behaviour than what can one say.

"That what she says later is nearer to the truth" I should have said.

Tanee58
don't be confused.
The op clearly underwent some kind of religious conversion during her visit.
And now her son can behave sometimes in the presence of caffine he can indeed be moderate.

Blimey

• if he shrieks and runs around in churches perhaps they affect him.....YIKES .... he isn't called Damien is he?

I am sorry OP has posted various different things and is confusing the hell out of me One minute she went because the park was wet the next because her DS wanted to go then he is running around then she is behind him and they are walking and talking

Confused.com

This thread is a bit mental.

That should be more like

And now her son can behave. Sometimes, in the presence of caffine, he can indeed be moderate.

Still gibberish of course.

I think I am being thwarted by sinister forces.

we are now all confused. Must be the caffeine - or the incense?

Oh, and I guess I'm one of those silent old hags who smoulders without saying anything - I never speak up because I'm scared of being labelled an old hag . When I'm in a church, despite not being a practising anything anymore - bit of a pagan, really, I DO like to absorb the atmosphere, the art, the music if the organist is practising, the whole feeling of being in a place where centuries of worship has soaked into the stones. I like to sit quietly in a pew or light a candle for a friend who WAS a devout Christian, and who died. When I have been troubled, I have found peace visiting a church, even though I have not believed since childhood. A church service would be a different thing - lots of lovely music and singing, and children should sing as loud as they like . But at other times, the church, as OP said, is 'open to all' - and the needs of all must be considered. The notice did not say 'open to all as a playground'. The old bag was probably voicing what others felt - I do hope OP won't avoid churches for ever after, but I hope she will consider other visitors next time.

LOL at the incense.

Tanee - what you say about the atmosphere in church is exactly how I feel - especially the bit about centuries of worship soaked into the stone - a lovely image - thank-you!

• bearing in mind, of course, that alter rails were originally set up to prevent dogs running amok at the altar .

'We only went in because DS wanted to go in, he wouldn't want to go in if he had to walk slowly and speak very quietly. Like he would in shops, hospitals, Starbucks, etc. -- other places that are full of movement, people and breakable things (all completely unlike the town church).'

I find this very strange. If he doesn't want to go in if he has to walk slowly and talk quietly then don't take him in!! If he wants to run and shout go to a playground or an open space.
A speech problem doesn't stop him following your example and whispering and walking quietly. You could also hold his hand.
I think that if you had explained the appropriate behaviour you would have found all the adults smiling and trying to talk nicely to him. Most people like small children, they just dislike badly behaved small children.

Presumably if the OP had in fact been walking with her DS then she wouldn't have titled the thread 'to let my 3yo run around shouting... etc'

He was running and shouting.

He was running and shouting because she let him run and shout. Unfotunately she thinks it is his right to do that and would only stop him if he was in physical danger.

Sorry -unfortunately.

church is for everyone, including young children who are being young children. Your right, churches shouldn't be depressing silent places, they should be full of life, youth, excitement.

In our church our kids, and others run around at the back, laughing, singing loudly, dancing etc. I would always stand up (and have done so) for thier right to do this at appropriate times in the service.

BUT there is a huge issue of RESPECT that maybe you have forgotten.

It seems to me that the reason for your son to visit the church should not be to feel a sense of ownership, but rather an understanding of what the church is there for, and a respect for the people there.

Sounds like sour-faced-old-bat may not have been the only one being insensitive!

But please go back if you want to. Maybe hold his hand and quietly help him look at things rather than let him run up and down.

Pingping -- I was walking behind/with DS, but when he was moving at all, DS was at least what you would call trotting, probably what qualifies as running. Running doesn't prevent a child from stopping to look at things.

I never said he could never behave well, but he's unpredictable and unreliable (am I the only one who has an unpredictable 3yo?), and I didn't try hard to make him be quiet or only walk in when we were visiting the empty or near-empty church. I have to work very hard to get him to be quiet elsewhere (mostly I fail, he really doesn't get the idea of waiting his turn in conversations; because of his speech problem it takes very long to have any sort of conversation with him, anyway).

My OP was how I think a completely impartial observer might have seen the scene, so the inconsistencies are of course there between how I was experiencing things and how someone else standing in another part of the buildling might have seen it. The rest of the details I put in later are basically background, not necessarily important or relevant at the time the of the incident in OP.

// Actually, I don't think I've ever been in a Starbucks, not really been any where I lived, and I hate the smell of coffee, and I wouldn't go for long if I did go because I have little children, etc. //

Crikey, I feel like a celeb for starting such a LONG MN thread with so many spin-offs...

"He tends to shout when he speaks at all, so from a stranger's perspective, you could say he's running and shouting..."

Yes you could definitely say that.

All 3 year olds are unpredictable - they are pushing against boundaries because that is how they learn how to conduct themselves civilly in the world (and it takes a lot of years to get it right).

The parent sets the boundaries and nudges him back inside when he strays.

The parent does not ignore the concept of boundaries and let him run wild. When he starts on that path, you have to get him to stop.

blimey alardi, looks like you have no control over him

You could if you wanted to you know.