To let my 3yo run around shouting in a church...

[alardi]

Obviously not during a service(!).

Here's the scene:
Fine medieval church in a small market town. Sign on church door that says "The church is open to all visitors". It's market day so many people popping in and out to see the architexture, buy a card, light a candle..

I go in with my 3yo DS who likes to run to the back the church, stopping to talk shout about things on the way, then run back to the front area (near the door), where the children's door is so that he can look at books, play with Noah's Ark toys there, etc. He tends to shout when he speaks at all, so from a stranger's perspective, you could say he's running and shouting...

As he runs back, a sour faced old bat old lady sitting in the pews, stands up and shrieks speaks sternly "Excuse me, this is not a playground!"

So I apologised and left...DS kept asking why we had to leave and I said it was because the miserable old hag old lady didn't like children.

But I haven't set foot in the church since, don't want to cause offense, can't get over the feeling that churches are really only for the old and solemn and miserable, not for lively young children.

Or was I outrageous to ever take my unruly DS in, especially as we are contented, resolute unbelievers? I just felt the church was part of DS's heritage and even if we are slack secularists humanists, I didn't want churches/religion to seem like a foreign culture to DC (hence why we used to visit the church fairly frequently).

Georgimama, I don't think that anyone is saying that children are not welcome in Churches - but as someone who has been a regular churchgoer, I can assure you that my views were the same then as they are now - that it is not unreasonable to expect some consideration for others - and the OP showed none, as far as I can see.

The child in question is unlikely to suffer huge lifetime trauma if his mama tells him that he should speak reasonably quietly and walk rather than running!!

All that I and many others here are arguing for is a little consideration and balance from both sides - the OP didn't show any consideration for any other users of the church - how is this good parenting? How will her ds learn consideration for others if she doesn't model it for him and teach him??

Pingping - are you happy/content if your dc runs around shouting anywhere they want to, and makes others unhappy? Do you want a world where everyone only ever thinks of their own selfish needs and has no consideration for others - because that's what we'll get if we don't teach our children consideration for others!! And yes, three years old is plenty old enough to be starting to learn this lesson.

Aaahhhaah, a convert! (Said with smug evangelist zeal).

(joke, you understand)

No I never said I would be happy if my Dc's ran a riot anywhere other than at friends and family but sometimes these things happen I didnt realise that OP purposely takes her DS to church to run around as if its a playground.

Doing that in fact does make OP unreasonable as stated I take back all my posts.

LOL independiente.

Nothing to do with all this but who's the woman at the side of the page? (Do you all have this, or is it just me)
Perhaps the infamous older lady, come to give her opinion...

Sorry pingping - we cross-posted, so I hadn't seen your previous post when I asked you that question in my last post. Big respect to you for what you just wrote!

no, I have a computer ad

Sorry, there was a video-box thing with a woman, it's gone now. I might be going mad. Ignore me please.

'I have had a bad experiance with Old people '

well in that case its fair enough to judge them all and tar them all with same brush.

i had a bad experience with an mner once-so now i think theyre all crazy.

Wow, what an avalanche of feelings about children and churches! Have to say I too think YABU. Children should be introduced to 'culture' and 'heritage', but surely part of that education should be to instill in them what those buildings mean to people - even if you don't share their beliefs, you have to respect them.

OP stated that she went into the church as the park was too wet. That implies she used the church as an alternative for DS to let off steam. That was wrong. She could, as others have suggested, used it to make an exciting game of mysterious exploration, whispering and tiptoeing. You can make a place interesting to a child without cranking up the volume. Three is not too young to learn to speak without shouting, walk without running. As OP said, there was no service on, but many people - some would have been sightseers, others may have been there for prayer, contemplation, or just to get some peace - the one thing everyone hopes to find in a church.

My DD was taken to churches when she was 2 - we were not religious, but love the symbolism and architecture. I taught her a little bit, and her first word when looking up at the gargoyles of Ely, was 'gargo'. MIL was very impressed. She was taught that churches were mysterious places where you kept as quiet as a 'church' mouse - if I'd been religious, I might have suggested that if she was very, very quiet, she might hear the sound of angels' wings - children love a bit of mystery and magic.

However, last year DP and I were in Gloucester Cathedral. A large family were wandering round doing what seemed to be the Harry Potter route - and all at great volume and lots of running and shouting about what happened where in the films. DP and I had to leave in the end because this wretched family were EVERYWHERE. It was just plain inconsiderate - churches are not theme parks, they are places of worship. Yes, children ARE an intrinsic part of Christianity, and should be made welcome (I love the way many churches now have a children's corner) - but it is a case of showing mutual understanding and respect. If children are not taught this from an early age, how will they fit into society when they are older?

MrsBoring, I didn't sit down in a pew and watch DS, I would walk around the church behind him and talk about the things he would stop and talk about ("Yes, that's a pretty picture", "Yes those are candles and they are hot", etc.).

We only went in because DS wanted to go in, he wouldn't want to go in if he had to walk slowly and speak very quietly. Like he would in shops, hospitals, Starbucks, etc. -- other places that are full of movement, people and breakable things (all completely unlike the town church).

AbbeyA: as it happens my 3-4yo DS was not capable of advanced conversation because of a speech problem.

Someone said I was in denial about whether he was shouting.. DS is the sort of boy who speaks loudly as his normal voice, when he shouts it's much much much louder than his normal voice. If you have encountered this type of little boy, you'll know what I mean.

Well, I'm sure you're mostly all happy I've not set foot in the church again, nor can I imagine I ever will.

Strange though. All the church people I met over the years who were very friendly the many dozens of times I came in with DS and he behaved exactly as I described. You'd really think the vicar or someone would have told me off on one of our many meetings.

Alardi the problem is you stated that the park was wet so it was a good place for your DS to let off steam which really a church is not a good place to let of steam

ds1 has/had speech problems.he also does the incapable of speaking quietly thing(grr) but i wouldnt let him run round a church just because it was too wet to go to a park etc.

They were obviously too nice for their own good, and perhaps coded their communication too much. The elderly lady did tell you in words/gestures clear enough to understand

TBH, I think it's a bit ridiculous to 'bever set foot ina church again' becasue a woman asked you to keep you son under a bit more control and others have thought she was in her rights to do that. Think that's very sad and a little odd. Why can't you take him into churches and just make sure he doesn't get too excited when he's in there? They are beautiful places and if you want to go in you should but just be respectful of others, that's all, no biggie is it? I don't get it. A church is and should be welcoming to all, it is alos a place of worship and it, and the other people in there should be respected.

If I visited a church to look around and my children started to get little excited and raise their voice I'd whisper to them to whisper, as I do in a libray as well. What's the problem??????

Alardi - if your ds is capable of considerate behaviour in Starbucks, why can't he behave considerately in church?

And with regards to your explanation to him of why you left the church - how would you feel if you encountered the elderly lady in the street and he said, loudly: "Oh look mummy - there's the nasty old lady that hates children."

If, instead, you had explained to him that some people go to a church for prayer/quiet time and that he'd been a bit too noisy, and had apologised to the lady, that would have been a great example to set him, and a good lesson, and you could then have taken him back to something in the church he liked and said: "Let's go and look at that picture you like - and let's see who can be the quietest!!"

You could have made it a positive learning experience for your ds - instead he's learned that old people don't like children, and you've made it very clear that he's not welcome in the church. After all, the elderly lady didn't tell you to leave - she just asked that you not treat the church as a playground - it was YOU that said you and ds had to leave!

Had to say I did when I read that he walks slowly and spekas quietly in shops and "Starbucks". Surely that's somewhere he can speak in his usual voice???

OP you are making yourself look abit silly for one if your child can behave in a coffee shop then should be able to behave in a church. Also I agree with Sunnygirl1412 about if you see that old lady again

(walks off this thread wishing mumsnet had a delete post button)

You could Tippex over the posts you want to delete, pingping - would that help!;)

You could Tippex over the posts you want to delete, pingping - would that help!

Oops!

Yeah that would help a great deal

I shall never stick up for anyone again

Okay alardi, sorry. If you were walking with him, in that case I change mine to YANBU.

I still wouldn't have let my DS run though - mostly because I would never catch him in time if he decided to really take off and barrel into a load of lit candles or stack of hymn books.

If my DS runs, I would have to run too to be alongside him, which I would consider obtrusive to others (but perhaps your DS runs slower?)

OK I am totally confused now. Alardi said in her first post that he was running up and down the church and talking loudly. Now she's 'walking with him' and pointing things out. And she went because HE wanted to go in, not because she wanted him to experience some 'culture' - and find an alternative to the wet park?

And he walks slowly and speaks quietly in STARBUCKS????

Which is, of course, the modern church of quiet and contemplation of the god Latte ...

Is it me, or is anyone else finding some contradictions here?

I take my children to church occasionally. I try to explain about awe and solemnity, but it doesn't always work. Ds sings hymns extra loudly "so that God can hear" and dd is a terror for building things from the kneelers if we don't keep a firm eye on her. I think churches are wonderful places for children and old people alike, and a really good place for the two to mix (although this can cause a bit of friction).

I would like the op to feel able to take her ds to a family service (perhaps when he is a little older and can understand what is going on) so that he can see what happens in the church on a Sunday. She is quite right when she says that it is part of our cultural heritage.

Tanee - yes, no, I don't know anymore. Pingping's gone pingpong, MrsgBoring's switched too. What does it all mean?