To let my 3yo run around shouting in a church...

[alardi]

Obviously not during a service(!).

Here's the scene:
Fine medieval church in a small market town. Sign on church door that says "The church is open to all visitors". It's market day so many people popping in and out to see the architexture, buy a card, light a candle..

I go in with my 3yo DS who likes to run to the back the church, stopping to talk shout about things on the way, then run back to the front area (near the door), where the children's door is so that he can look at books, play with Noah's Ark toys there, etc. He tends to shout when he speaks at all, so from a stranger's perspective, you could say he's running and shouting...

As he runs back, a sour faced old bat old lady sitting in the pews, stands up and shrieks speaks sternly "Excuse me, this is not a playground!"

So I apologised and left...DS kept asking why we had to leave and I said it was because the miserable old hag old lady didn't like children.

But I haven't set foot in the church since, don't want to cause offense, can't get over the feeling that churches are really only for the old and solemn and miserable, not for lively young children.

Or was I outrageous to ever take my unruly DS in, especially as we are contented, resolute unbelievers? I just felt the church was part of DS's heritage and even if we are slack secularists humanists, I didn't want churches/religion to seem like a foreign culture to DC (hence why we used to visit the church fairly frequently).

Tortoiseshell,

think you ABU - as many others have said, churches should and do welcome visitors of all ages, but there is still a code of conduct.
Also - I do hate the many rude terms used for older people on Mumsnet. "sour-faced old bint"?? "miserable old bag"?? Ageist and really offensive.

A well meaning friend took my daughter out of my wedding as she was crying. I wish she hadn't been taken out as I wanted her there. But if it had been anyone else's wedding then I'd have taken her out.

It was your wedding, stripey. That's different.

OP apoligised to the old lady and left to the church she was not rude to the old lady.

So whats the problem?

I don't know how you can justify some of the comments on here about OP's parenting skills

PingPing - the OP invited opinions as to whether she was being unreasonable. The consensus is YES she was, churches are not playgrounds. Her evident disrespect for the old lady in question is really unpleasant and when challenged for allowing her son to behave inappropriately, she told him they were leaving because the old lady, a neighbour, did not like children. That is hardly responsible parenting.

Well yes, true, she did apologise and then leave. Fair point.

But it seems many posters are picking up on the lack of respect shown in the OP towards a) other people's feelings, b) church as a sacred place, c) this older woman in particular.

I'm not a member of any religion now, but was brought up as one. One of the more amazing things that I remember as a young child about church, is the sense of calm and thefeeling of awe-inspiring sacredness. I'm still drawn into churches for that feeling. I think young children are totally capable of feeling awe and the sense of something other-worldly - and I think it's good for them to experience that.

Reading back on the op ,well what a blessed relief it will be to any church that you decide not to visit.

I think it's a waste of time and evergy trying to explain what we mean to ping. She just doesn't get it.

OP needs to come stick up for herself.

I have had a bad experiance with Old people and once being on a bus one was very rude to me and my Goddaughters just because they were mixed race and eating ( I am going to get killed for this) but eating a greggs pastie

So yeah some old people are miserable and moody and dont like children.

Maybe she was being rude to OP she could of politely said I am trying to pray could you please stop your child from screaming and shouting and running around.

Sorry, to be clearer, I think that running and shouting in a church take away from that sense of the sacred. Quite apart from actually considering the feelings of other people in that sacred space.

pingping, I would leave now.
You are making yourelf look extremely ageist.

OP has buggered off, of course.

ping, just because the older lady in the church was less then diplomatic it doesn't in any way shape or form excuse the fact that
A) the op allowed her ds to behave in such an inappropriate manner in a place of worship

B) that she thought she was in the right to do so

C) that she slagged someone off to her child and told a lie to him about them

I think it's fine to take a 3 year old into a church, absoliutley your right to go in with him, and a lovely thing to do. However it is still a place or worship where some people go to say a prayer, find comfort etc etc etc and I think the lady who said that 'this isn't a playground' was quite in her rights to say something. You have every right to take your child in there but with all due respect it is your seponsibility to teach him that he can't shout and run in a church. He should lower his voice, walk around, be interested etc. And when he forgets to lower his voice, he is only 3 after all, it is up to you to gently remind him to lower it again and to keep him next to you or at least to make sure he doesn't start charging around.

"I have had a bad experience with Old people"
Here we go. Yes, Ping, so have I. I've also had a 'bad experience' with schoolchildren, teenagers, teachers, students, mothers, fathers, doctors, nurses, priests, bus conductors and probably several other 'groups' over the course of my life so far. So what? I've also had countless good experiences with all those groups of people. Nothing to do with OP. Whether this particular elderly woman was or was not grumpy is of NO relevance to whether the OP is unreasonable in letting her 3 year old run around and shout in a church. Even if the elderly woman had said nothing at all, the consensus is that allowing your child to do this in church is unreasonable.
If you are actively trying to think about other people, and not just yourself, you will not just be waiting until someone says something to take action. You will be pro-active in anticipating what might happen, and reducing the likelihood of it.

Interesting that it seems to be regular churchgoers who don't have a problem with children making noise when church is open to all, and those who don't go to church who do have a problem with it.

To me a church is not a museum, or an art gallery, or a beautiful building or a musaleum (sp?) - although they are sometimes partly those things too.

It is God's house and we should all be welcome there. The old lady might have had any number of traumas but plenty of people would be put off for life by someone reacting to their child's pretty mild bad behaviour. It's not what Christianity is about (or not what it is supposed to be about).

I am surprised I'm coming down YABU because I'm totally pro children being in church, being welcome for who they are and being tolerated by the rest of the congregation even if they make noise. I've been to some wonderful services where the children running up and down the aisles belonged to the presiding clergy (it actually brings tears to my eyes to think about the time our Curate took communion with his 2 year old DS on his hip). I take my own DS regularly and he does probably disturb people in church, though I make strenuous efforts to reduce this and would never let him run about on his own.

Now, if the OP were in the church trying to get something done - to pray, or see someone about the flower rota or something and her DS ran a bit amok I would say that was fine, she was trying her best. But she wasn't, she'd taken him in there expressly to run around. I can only imagine she was sitting down on one of the pews watching him go. That would make my blood boil because it is disrespectful. And I'm very much not one to get het up about "respect" as a general rule.

Children's disruptions to a service are welcomed partly because it is welcoming to their parents who want to be there and continue with their spiritual life, despite having kids in tow. It is lovely for a child to be able to experience the grandeur and beauty of a church building, but, as in all places, they do need to appreciate that there are other people there who also have a right to use the building. They will also appreciate the special nature of the building more if it is accorded some respect by their parents and they are therefore encouraged to behave appropriately.

Georgimama well said

I never read that she took her DS in there so that he had somewhere to run around am I missing a post of something?

You're unreasonable and need to consider disciplining your child now while he's still young. I am not an old lady and I'd have said the same as her. Church's are reverential holy places and need to be treated with respect.

Pingping - somewhere in first few pages of thread:

'... I only got in the habit of going into the church because it was somewhere in town (when I needed to go anyway for shopping errands, etc.) to let the dc explore on rainy days (not so good to go to parks those days).'

Granted 'exploring' does not necessarily mean 'running and shouting'... except in this case, it does seem to be.

, I only got in the habit of going into the church because it was somewhere in town (when I needed to go anyway for shopping errands, etc.) to let the dc explore on rainy days (not so good to go to parks those days).

there you go pingping

oops!

kittywise , it's probably the only time that will happen to me, am so slow typing.

I didnt realise she wrote that so I take it back I thought she had just gone there for a visit and her DS was playing up not that she purposely takes her child there so he can run around and use it as a playground