I know I am but I'm going to do it anyway!

[mytetherisending]

DD2 is now 6mths, has been bf on demand mostly and is fully weaned on 3 meals with desserts, juice from a cup and the occasional snack. She is still demanding night feeds which I feel she shouldn't need if she took good feeds at 10 and 230. Instead she faffs with these and wants milk during the night. I have now decided to quit breast feeding as she will not take bottles- so it is all bottles or none iyswim. I hope that being able to see how much she takes during the day and a gentle prod to take more will reduce night feeding. I have dusted off the GF book which I used with dd1 (and who has only had a handful of disturbed nights since 3mths!) in the hope that the routine will get me some modicum of sleep. I am knackered.

I know it is unreasonable to give up bf for the sake of my sleep, however, dd1 is constantly tired (2.9mths) and is behaving awfully because of it. The baby disturbs her sleep every night

I just needed to vent sorry! Grrr to all those people who say babies get their own pattern and start sleeping eventually- I can't wait til 'eventually' happens!

I shoud think not! B/feeding doesnt 'damage' anything! It is the 'default' after all.

"1 million at best" is as good as you'll get on anything. 100,000 times more than the numbers involved in studies you've picked to believe on facial muscles and such like. So you'll believe studies that have been tested on 1000 babies regarding facial muscles and learning to speak earlier, but not those that have tested "at best 1 million" babies? Surely it doesnt take a genius to work it out does it?

So the percentage of 1000 babies that determined they might not speak as early as the rest is the ONLY consequence if they didnt eat solids as quickly override the percentage of 1,000,000 that showed that waiting determined that they had much healthier guts, less risk of allergies, less risk of bowel disease, less risk of obesity.

I'm sorry but surely you must concede that what you are saying sounds utterly bonkers? And I mean that in the nicest possible way

No you missed my point my dd1 was ff not bf and is very intelligent
It will be interesting to compare the 2 dds when they are older re intelligence as dd2 has been bf for 6mths.

The point really is that I don't believe any research really. Things go through phases with time.
Somebody years ago thought that blood letting with leaches cured lots of illness and everyone had it done, turns out it wasn't right at all. All I am saying is that research changes, maternal instinct doesn't. I know my baby was much happier once she started eating solids- no research, just the smile on her face when she sees food! That is also meant in the nicest way

The most intelligent of my 3 dcs was bf the longest. I'm not talking baby milestones either. My dcs are 20, 17 and 11. Of course I have no undisputable proof that he wouldn't have been just as intelligent had he been ff but I did raise that point on another thread where I received some very plausible and reasoned replies

"The point really is that I don't believe any research really."

OK, that's me off this thread. I think this is a very important and very interesting topic, but at the same time I'm frantically busy in real life.

I have no space in my life to discuss a complex issue with someone who has already closed their mind to any possible new ideas.

Cheers all.

Sorry that should read unless it is a higher percentage of positive outcomes of a good sample of the given population.
i.e. out of all the charnley hips replaced it was found that 98 percent lasted the duration of the lifespan of a patient.
Or it has been found that handwashing has reduced cross infection by 99% in all NHS Trusts doing it.
Not your baby has a .001% risk of developing chrones if you choose to wean at 13wks. As it is a risk not a given outcome.

Tori, you are still bonkers

And leeches do actually have a place in modern medicine from time to time. Just not for everything. It's amazing how research has found these things out, isnt it?

"the thing is I don't believe any research really" - proves my earlier point about faith. Which is all very well, but the worrying thing is that Mytether is going to be advising other parents. However hard she tries to spout govt guidelines, it is going to be clear to mothers that she doesn't believe it.

A bit like a vicar who doesn't believe in God: she should consider her position.

"the thing is I don't believe any research really"

I am very worried that you will be in a position to influence other mothers if/when you train as a HV.

Ultimately, the title of the thread says it all;

"Am I being unreasonable? : I know I am but I'm going to do it anyway!"

You know what you are doing is wrong, and not actually in the best interests of your baby, but you are going to do it for your own personal reasons, and will justify it one way or another.

I never had any illusions about changing your mind, but I hope others who have read this thread whilst lurking or what ever have seen how selfish and closed minded you are being and behave differently.

tori how do you maintain evidence based practice and clinical efficacy if you chose to ignore research?

research has driven and informed medical practice and challenged old orthodoxy and bad habits. Back to sleep campaign reseatrch driven, demonstrably reduced SIDS

in the old days MW and doctors used to give meds to dry up milk supply.now as benefits of BF are well researched and documented this is obselete poor practice

Is this still going on?

Also, Tori, early weaning is a relatively new concept. People didn't mush food with a pestle and mortar to start weaning, what would be the point?
Food was sparse as it was and bed-sharing was the norm, as was nursing.
Of course there were times when the mother couldn't nurse for whatever reason and you may think they would have said 'ooh, let's crush up some food' but, no. They just got someone else to nurse the baby instead! Which brings me to the solution for your problem.
Get a wet nurse

I've been reading this thread while DS is snoozing, obviously should be tidying etc. I think there have been some rather agressive comments aimed at the OP re. CC and early weaning. No need! Just out of interest, I was told by HV that DoH guidelines are about to go back to wean at 4 months as there is evidence (don't ask me where it is!) that waiting til 6 months results in babies being more picky about foods. MTIE, I do think you don't do yourself any favours however by stating that you don't really believe in research and you give anecdotal examples in order to get your point across. Very tabloid/"Take a break" kind of argument and, as a health professional, you should know better. Your future clients/new mums want evidence and guidelines, not "well my mum's friend's sister did this and she came to no harm" type of thing. On a personal level, I'm sure you're being a great mum and your kids sound very contended.

HH - your HV is not correct. She must have got the wrong end of the stick somewhere.

Tori, I know you know we are speaking sense, (hence your comment about not believing research) you just hate to admit when you're wrong...we know you too well

I'm not wrong. I just have a different opinion to yours. Guidelines are just that- not a set of rigid rules to be applied without any other considerations. All of the WHO guidelines point out that there are individual differences within babies. They are not one size fits all. Just as some babies respond to being carried around, others don't. Some children sleep through the night from very early with no encouragement, others don't. All babies develop at different rates for things like speech, co-ordination, understanding, so why should physical development be any different. From my own experience of my children they were physically more capable, bigger and more forward than friends babies of the same age. If they are further developed in those areas who can say that they are not more developed internally, since the body grows and develops at the same rate externally and internally

FWIW at 13wks dd2 could use a baby walker and actually walk, not just sit in it so was physically well developed. At 16wks she could stand in her playstation. Since being able to sit upright is a criteria for readiness I assessed her readiness and found that she was.

MTS... your absolutely bang on. Both my dcs were extrememly latewalking/crawling/sitting etc but very early talkers...Everyone said,`"don't worry, the ages are just guidelines and they all develop at their own rate".
Why will people not accept that this could the same for dietry needs and development.

I am in your corner MTS and am fascinated with the thread..

Tori, did someone steal your babies for the first 3 months, sedate you and then bring you back as if nothing had ever happened?
You'll be telling us they were writing their name at 4 days next

FWIW you know I'm not hot on controlled crying myself, but the last couple of nights DS2 has been waking for more feeds than I know necessary. I'm perfectly happy to feed him when he wakes at around 3/4am but he has been waking an added three times on top of this and only settling with breast.
Last night I decided if he woke any time except his early morning feed I wouldn't feed him, just settle him.
So he woke up at midnight. I went in his room, picked him up and cuddled him. He wouldn't settle until we walked into my room Anyway as soon as he settled he yawned so I put him back in his bed. Twenty minutes later he was crying again, I did the same thing, picked him up, stroked him etc, he was crying, which I hated, but I held and comforted him, soft singing and stroking his face. When he was calm I put him to bed again. Each time I put him down he was silent for approx twenty minutes, then would cry, I picked him up within a minute of him crying each time. It took three times until he settled for a long stretch but then he slept through until 5am, fed and went back down until 8am.
Could you try something like that instead?

For what it's worth too, my dd has a dairy allergy which she actually picked up through my breast milk...

The extremely experienced and nationally renowned paed who she is under advised me to wean her slowly at 16 weeks as in his opinion (research based) she would be less likely to develop a host of other allergies.

I did, and other than her dairy allergy she has not developed any others.

Yes, babies develop at different rates.
Of course they do.
But can you not see that those different rates are covered in the 17-26weeks????
Just like some babies crawl at 6 months, others at 9months, there is a period in which (unless there is a problem) a baby will learn to do something.
The same is with the gut maturing, but just like a baby will not physically be able to crawl until a certain age (i.e a 2-week old baby can do no more than the breastcrawl) they cannot physically be ready to eat before 17 weeks and there is no way we can tell if they are a 17weeker, or a 26-weeker.

I'm sure cavemen were not using pestle and mortars. They probably did what a lot of the animal kingdom does. Chew up the food in the mothers (or fathers mouth) and then spit it in to the babies mouth. Very efficient.

VVV I just find the weaning literature lacking in solid foundations. The research is mostly biased whatever you look at in relation to babies. Lots of it is extrapolated to the extreme with the most tenuous of evidence. The human body is far too complex to say that x causes y. Smoking can cause cancer, the link is very strong for some cancers but not for others, for some cancers there are more likely causes such as genetics. My point being that its the same for weaning, doing it early may cause bowel problems but its a small risk compared to many other risks we take as parents.

Again though you are sticking to periods of time ie crawling 6-9 months.

My ds didn't sit unsupported until he was 10 months, crawled at 18 months and was 2 before he walked..

regardless of the guidelines i thought it better to go with what the expert who was looking after my baby said. For as many experts who believe 6 months for their reasons, their are another host who believe earlier for their reasons.

Oh my goodness - I can't believe how long this thread has got!
I haven't been able to read every word - sadly my children don't sleep for quite that long at lunchtime! However, I wanted to add a few words - many apologies if I'm going over old ground.
MTIE - as I said (much) earlier, dd was a big baby like yours - 20lb at 6 months. I started weaning her at 17 weeks and by 6 months she was on three solid meals a day as well as 4 bfs. I had no qualms about giving her solid food as she ate it and slept better as a result.
Ds is 6 months and on 3 solid meals a day. He is not as big a his sister so my reasons for weaning him were different - he is very sicky baby and I hoped it might help the sickiness. As he wasn't so big I wanted to take it much more slowly with him and offered him just rice and/or fruit or veg. He lapped up every mouthful from the day we started but as I didn't want it to put him off his bfs I gave him only small amounts - he cried at the end of every meal. When I got him weighed at 6 months, his weight had dropped to the 50th centile (having been up by the 91st) and I am now letting him eat until he won't take another bite. He had been very unsettled and I am convinced that he was very hungry. I feel guilty that I didn't let him eat more.
Ds has been sleeping 7-7 since 5 months (coincidentally when he started having 2 meals a day). If he does wake up in the night, I will leave him to whitter for a short period (5 mins) as he then always settles back to sleep.
As I mentioned, I did cc with dd and it worked wonders. I have been incredibly lucky to have a son who hasn't needed it. He has fallen into sleeping 12 hrs at night completely on his own. I am not telling you this to rub salt into the wound, but to let others know that it is not unusual for a 5 or 6 month old baby to sleep through the night.
I agree with whoever it was earlier on this thread that sometimes going in to them can disrupt their sleep rather than help them settle. I am not saying you shouldn't go in to them but that sometimes it is worth seeing if they'll settle by themselves.
I am completely of the mind that everyone parents differently and that is the way it should be. You can't force youself to be the type of parent that you're not. I personally can't function if I haven't had a good night's sleep so with ds it was almost a necessity to get her to sleep at night, esp as I know it was habit waking her up rather than a need to eat.
Phew... sorry to harp on - best of luck with the bottles and the cc - you've got my support!

Tori you are right - "who can say" whether they are ready inside or not? You can't. You know you can't. So why not wait a few weeks? You dont know if yours is one of those who'd be more at risk of obesity, ibs, bowel cancer etcetc and you dont know if yours has a developed gut.

You are prioritising the potential of a few weeks lack of sleep (which is harmless quite frankly in the great scheme of things) over your babies health and there is no guarantee or evidence that weaning will help with sleep and that's what I dont get.

My DD was just the same as yours. She also had a cows milk protein allergy. She was holding her head up at weeks old, sitting up unaided at 4 months walking at 9 months. Her gut would most definitely not have reacted well to the introduction of anything earlier than at 26 weeks - and that was at the advice of my very own very experienced paediatrician who specialises in allergies/atopic disease.

VVV I have already explained that I didn't wean early to get more sleep, I just couldn't physically feed her enough milk. She fed every 1-11/2 hours for up to 45 mins at 13wks. I wasn't just tired- I was exhausted. DD2 was never settled. If she would have taken a bottle then I would have topped up rather than wean, however, she wouldn't, so I was feeding all day and all night and it got to the point that I was completely going to give up breast feeding. The problem was that she could smell milk on me so I couldn't give her top ups. DH was working during the day and at night she knew I was in the house and would scream at DH with a bottle until I fed her .
Early weaning isn't ideal, nor is giving up breast feeding- my feeling was that early weaning was more beneficial than stopping breast feeding at 3mths.

Thanks nonedomesticgodess Since having 4 days on ff she slept from 2230-7am this morning! DD1 behaving much better!

I'm really glad to hear it - dd (now 2.4)is a nightmare in terms of her behaviour when she's tired and the idea of trying to deal with her being like that if I've had a bad night too is just not worth thinking about!