to think we would be better off in, a communist society, wealth should be shared

[IAMJIGSAW]

doesn't seem right some folk have so much and some have next to nothing.

what do you think?

no mung bean boiling,hairy toed commune for me,put all the tired ole commies on their own island.

i actually quite like the trappings of capitalism and consumer durables and internet.

I'd like to set up a community in an empty island where everyone works for the benefit of others. Maybe bring back bartering, if one person has chickens, they can swap the eggs for some vegetables grown by someone else. No crap in shops, just things people need.

I lived in a Communist country in the 1980s (Poland). Trust me, it doesn't work. OrmIrian gives a pretty good example of how it was.

I don't think I'd want to live on a kibbutz, either (and most of the kibbutzim are no longer run on the traditional lines now). And I'll pass on the tribal living thing as well.

maybe split the country have half of it communist, half capitalist.
see which half fares the best?

mrs s i'd like to her more if you have the time? just what it was actually like

The so called selfish and lazy people would be less so in a society where their individual skills are appreciated and they have an equally important role to play

Unemployment, lack of education, crime, drugs are all a result of capitalism. The poor being marginalised and socially isolated by the more successful components of society

The likes of Russia was not truly communist. Stalin was a dictator, there should be no room for such power in a truly communist state.

I have ambition. What would I do with my aspirations if we lived in a communist state?

I think communal living can work for smallish groups of people, where you know everyone and can see what they contribute to the communal life - whether that is financial, caring, etc, or where you can see that they are not in a position to do that much in practical ways eg frail or elderly etc. That way, you are working for the good of people you know and respect, and know that they are also working for your benefit, or that caring for them is a "good" thing to do.

Can I live in the capatalist side please

What about... if you got paid for what you do, and everyone who did that job got paid the same. So every say.. secretary got paid a set amount an hour, every plumber got paid a set amount an hour etc. That way at least we would all be valued the same, and the more hours we put in, the more we would earn, and in a way, be equal?

Look at Germany if you want to see why we would not be better off in a communist society. While West Germany had their "Wirtschaftswunder" (economic miracle) in the years following WW2, East Germany fell into rack and ruin.

I'm going to ask everyone on here to hand over their commas.

I will redistribute them among you equally later (after I've snaffled a load for personal use).

[profligate, comma, user]

But that's how it ended up, Jigsaw! Miners and manual labourers being paid more than surgeons. Surgeons refusing to do an operation unless they were paid a handsome bribe. Teachers refusing to pass a child in his exams unless the mother, who was cabin crew for the national airline and travelled a lot, gave her a bottle of Scotch or two in return for the good grades which may or may not have been earned. It just leads to corruption.

I knew a government minister under Jaruzelski who sent his son to Harrow. And a fair few wealthy Poles sent their kids to the American school. So clearly no equal distribution of wealth there.

because not all jobs are equal in worth or finances.cant reduce everyone to a unitary arbitrary payment

should the oncologist/scientist be paid the same as the power washer at kwik fit?

if yes- why

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, hers a few

heres a few i mean ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

It is not that the principals of communism don't work. It is that the humans trying to implement these principals fail. As I mentioned earlier a capitalist mindset we are entrenched in

MrsS - I have never lived in a communist state so have to admit you have more right to your opinion

But is western, capitalist society truly working?

You only have to read some of the threads on this to realise a lot of people are truly unhappy with life e.g. the discussion of the day a week or so ago regarding whether women are truly happy with motherhood

mrs s thanks for that, i am interested in the downsides too.

What was it like? Healthy black economy - paying in dollars in restaurants at the black market rate was the norm, ditto paying in dollars in private shops. Lots of queueing for essentials, like toilet paper. Meat was rationed - you got more if you were ill, plus an extra meat ration if you had a pedigree dog. Petrol was also rationed and people used to store it in the blocks of flats, so if there was a fire, the whole thing would go bang pretty quickly. What else was rationed? Chocolate - only children could get chocolate on ration.

Queueing for everything. Shops with very little in, maybe a huge consignment of knitting wool in only one colour. If you saw a queue you joined it, to see what it was for. The jokes of the time - what has 100 legs and eats cabbage? The Polish meat queue. Before communism, you would go into a shop which said "Butcher" on the window and find meat inside. During Communism, you'd go into a shop with "Meat" on the window and find a butcher inside.

Iamajigsaw ... They split a country 60 years ago. Which one fared best then?
Silly argument IMO.

mrs s that is so interesting.
tell us more please

I go to the shops and like everyone else I enjoy having a bit of money to treat myself

BUT just look at the masses upon masses of stuff produced and never sold. Just sitting in shop windows to try and temp us. Useless stuff.

This is not symbolic of a society that is working

Part of the difficulty with communism is that it is actually basic nature to work for the benefit of yourself and your immediate family. So, even if you live in a system where things are supposed to be divided evenly, many individuals will cheat the system to do better for themselves. And, because individuals can do better by cheating, you will never achieve a stable system. If you want things to be different, you have to find a system where those who try to cheat it actually do worse than those who play fair.

On the upside, there was very little crime. You were quite safe walking home in the small hours, although the policemen would often stop you and ask where you had been and where you were going. There was a drug culture - usually glue sniffing.

There was also full employment, in huge dinosaur state industries which should have been closed down years ago, but kept people on, and were very inefficient, but at least they could say, hey, we've got full employment. Lots of people took 3 or 6 months unpaid leave from their jobs to go and work in the west on building sites or in factories. The average wage then was about GBP 40 a month. The average pension was probably around 20 quid a month. Although costs of living were much lower than in the west, this really wasn't much to live on.

MrsSchadenfreude - I believe in a more idealistic version of communism!