to think we would be better off in, a communist society, wealth should be shared

[IAMJIGSAW]

doesn't seem right some folk have so much and some have next to nothing.

what do you think?

[misi]

the communist doctrine is the destruction of the family. would you be happy for the state to rear your children?
if you read marx and engels and the communist manifesto, it says that the family unit is the enemy of the state and children should be raised by the village (community/state). in russia and ukraine etc, the family unit is still trying to recover after 70 years of communism and they have many social problems in those countries (similar to ours over here strangely enough????) in the early years, it was common for children to be taken away from its parents to be educated by the state and many parents never saw their kids again till they werer much older. there are benefits to the communist state but there are many more reasons it doesn't work and the myth of wealth sharing was just that, a total myth, it never worked and it never will. it was the continual collapse of the economy and the lack of abilty to grow enough food for themselves that brought soviet russia down. in the 50's, 60's 70's if the US had cut off its grain supplies to russia that were keeping it afloat, russia would have collapsed there and then but would have more than likely caused war, so it was only western capitalism that enabled communism to survive for so long. If you look at china now, communism didn't work and wealth sharing has failed miserably, sharing wealth actually makes the country poorer and the people suffer more so they have turned to a form of capitalism that those in power are now reaping huge rewards for in wealth, yet 50% of the chinese population are earning less than £2.50 per day but the government has somehow managed to spend £20bn on the olympics,

[mrsruffallo]

We need an alternative way of life, but I don't think that communisn is necessarily the answer.

I can't bear snobbery and materialism, or he wasteful way many of us live, or the directionless dole-ites.

I say bulid more trees and allotments and we all grow our own veg to start with!

Also no one allowed in a car own their own-must be car sharing

I could go on

[squiffy]

Cuba nearly worked, in economic/societal terms. But the price for equality is the requirement that all submit to the process. When you don't you end up with politics and free speech issues.

IMHO humans have always followed the principles of survival of the fittest (natural selection) and political models will fall in and out of fashion over time (just like our current one will seem twee at some point in the future). The constant is that the fittest will survive and lead, will guide the world in the mannere that most protects people like them, and will use whatever weapons are to hand (be it poverty, limits to education or medicine, religion, drugs, materialism, freedom of speech restrictions, hell, even Heat magazines go in that bucket) to protect their way of life for their kind. Stuff like altruism and charity and empathy are luxuries that are indulged in only when societies can afford to indulge. They ebb and wane like everything else(as seen during ethnic cleansing tragedies which repeat again and again throughout history). Read animal farm yes, but also read darwin. We are a species that evolves via natural selection. If we went to war tomorrow you would shoot your best friend if it meant getting milk for your baby. We just like to kid ourselves that we are more evolved than that now...

And if you accept that then it is difficult to see how you can sustain a communist society in it's theoretical form for any period of time. People aren't born equal, and at some point the people born fitter want a bigger share of the pie.

[Tortington]

you could sY THT about anything

[threekids]

Not not at all, just that the industrial revolution changed the face of the world. It wasnt right and it wasnt wrong, and people suffered but people also benefited.

[Tortington]

"As a result of that those who were considered poor were able to make more in monetary terms than those who did not adapt"
oy vey, seriously - you think that the industrial revolution - in its time was any beter than serfdom? forced labour of serfs on the fields of landowners, in return for protection and the right to work on their leased fields.... or then the right to work in their factories and pay rent on their houses that they built for the workers and the children who then worked at age 5 in mills
the babies in the basements shut up with opium.

aye much better this industrial revolution was

[lilolilmanchester]

was going to write "great idea in principle, but read Animal Farm" - but was beaten to it. Seriously, if you haven't read it, you should.... and then read modern history of communist societies. I totally agree with your ideals, but it doesn't seem to work in practice

[threekids]

BeHereNow in economic terms though you dont count children or those over the age of retirement as active members of a community.

I am a big believer in capitalism. If we were all looked after by the state then people would not put as much effort into development, without capitalism we would never have had the industrial revolution. As a result of that those who were considered poor were able to make more in monetary terms than those who did not adapt. Even though they still didnt earn as much as the wealthy at the time (generally from inherited wealth) they still earned more than before. Diversification as a result of capitalism.

Though i do hate major inequality in society such as the privileged few getting on in life as a result of their heritage. I think hard work pays off and the desire to keep up with the Joneses makes us work a bit harder. The multiplier effect is very impressive. Though there are clearly some definate social devisions which is sad.

[DeeRiguer]

and i dont think this is really a capitalist society anyway
why would we bale out banks (northern rock) and such if it was?

[ninedragons]

Capitalist systems have a lot more money sloshing around in them. They generate more overall wealth than communist ones do.

In capitalist systems the rich have vastly more, but actually so do the poor, relative to people under communist systems.

[nowirehangers]

Pigleto
Quite, why are all the young Poles/Romanians etc coming over here to work? Because capitalism is more advanced than in their countries and they want to reap the benefits
Of course it would be lovely if there were no rich or poor, above us only sky etc etc cue strains of Imagine but people are materialistic and entrepreneurial and the brighter ones will always find ways of acquiring more than their neighbours. Look at communist countries like Cuba or Vietnam where young girls and boys blatantly prostitute themselves to tourists to earn a few more dollars

[Jux]

There was an economist in the 80s (or 70s?) who suggested that everyone in the country should be given £100 a week on attaining age 18. There would be no other state benefits. Payment for work would be taxed at an enormous rate which was how the public sector would be paid for. I can't remember the details, but possibly everyone had to work for a couple of weeks a year or something. If you wanted something special then you worked for a few months or whatever, paid your tax and got the money. Apparently, this was cheaper than trying to run the economic side of the country the way we did then (do now). I've no idea how much £100 a week would be 30 or so years later. Quite possibly more than I have to live on a week now. I know it sounded like luxury to me at the time. Anyone know anything about this?

[electra]

It's unworkable.

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"

[UpSinceCrapOClock]

Oops, forgot the 'entry fee' for this thread ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[UpSinceCrapOClock]

Move to Scandinavia - that probably has the closest to the sort of system that you're looking for.

[G2B]

*our.

What a dreadful spelling error by me.

[G2B]

Me and DP work are arses off (when I'm not on maternity leave). We have next to nothing but I like to think with a lot of hard work eventually we will have. And we'll have earned it.

I don't like the idea of a communist society one bit.

[hannahsaunt]

I am too tired at the moment to digest all the posts or to think terribly deeply, so apologies in advance but ... I do struggle with the fact that there are lots of extremely hard working people out there, working long hours, doing jobs that need doing to keep society ticking over but are being paid a pittance compared to me. I salute those people who get up every morning to go and empty bins, clean hospitals, serve in school dinner halls, work as a playleader in the children's hospital etc etc. I do feel a need to make society more sharing in whatever economic format that takes (higher minimum wage, more tax credit thingies) to bring about a more equitable life, a more even standard of living.

[cestlavie]

I remember astro-physicist, novelist and scientist Carl Sagan about how extra-terrestrial civilisations would find all of our current economic and governance systems to be appallingly basic. I'm very much inclined to agree (although sadly I have no answers!)

[littlemisss]

If not a communist society then certainly a more socialist one in which we attempt to reduce the gap between rich and poor, rather than totally eradicate it.

I for one would welcome more progressive taxation to achieve this and certainly wouldn't mind paying more tax myself to achieve it. Although, to be fair, one of the most effective ways of redistributing wealth is through inheritance tax.

[pigleto]

• capitalist side I mean. Sorry.

[pigleto]

I am not prepared to share with the likes of Gary Glitter. Communism is a rubbish idea. If there were a capitalist state next door to a communist state and people were free to move between them all the ambitious, bright and hardworking people would move to the communist state and all the sick, elderly and feckless would move to the communist side. There would not be enough idealists to keep the place going. That is why you have to put so much barbed wire around a communist state to keep people in.

[MrsSchadenfreude]

Smallwhitecat (great name, by the way!) - what a small world!