To wish that people would not bag a seat first and THEN get their food in a busy cafe...

[paolosgirl]

because those of us who reached the head of the queue before your pal who's way at the back of the queue now have to wander aimlessly about holding a tray with food or drink on it that's now getting cold, because we CAN'T GET A BLARDY TABLE because they're all full of people holding seats for their pals in the queue.

ARGHHHHHH....

Actually, IMNBU at all. I'm being perfectly reasonable (and probably a bit of PMT involved here, granted), but does this wind anyone else up, or shall I just go and have a wee lie down?

Incomplete sentence ... "If a cafe had an enforced no-bagging policy, that is the only time I would follow it. But then I might just prefer to take my custom somewhere else anyway, if the cafe looked crowded and I was likely to need to wait even if I got to the end of the queue.

I think Mshighwater is being noble but it is pointless. I have just read through this thread again because I felt rather alone but this is not the case-the majority will only purchase if they have a seat.Even a cafe owner says near the beginning that she hates everyone being in the queue and prefers them to sit down first.
I have followed all the arguments but I can't see that it is queue jumping. Sheer common sense says that you shouldn't buy food and drink if you can't sit down to eat it.
The only point in favour of us all queueing is that it would force cafes to get a system because they would have disgruntled people with trays saying we need a table for 6, we are not going to be fobbed off with one for 4 and one for 2 so we want our money back!
It is a cop out for cafes to put up unworkable notices-they need to take responsibility.

But it isn't unworkable, AbbeyA. Our M&S has a 'no bagging' policy which works just fine. There aren't hoards of people wandering about with trays of food, unable to sit down.

Mind you, having thought about it, our cafe is next to the furniture dept so I suppose one could always park oneself down on a nice comfy sofa and fancy coffee table instead.

Our M&S has the same policy that is widely ignored!
Everyone has said that it is perfectly acceptable for my disabled mother to sit down first. When she is sitting down and her stick is out of the way she looks quite healthy for her age, people will be giving her stony looks! Someone earlier said that if out with her BIL he needs to sit down because he has a terminal illness but looks healthy-is he supposed to explain to everyone that thinks he is queue jumping?!
If I went into town at 10am and thought I will have coffee at 11am I must save a table then it would be unacceptable-however when I go in at 11am ready to have my coffee it is perfectly sensible to find a seat. I don't want the coffee if I don't have the seat!
I am not prepared to get one on the offchance that I might be able to sit down.

I think generally the no bagging policy is the way to go. It does work if people just go along with it. The scenarios re: disabled people of course have to be factored into the equation, but really, we're talking about a minority of people aren't we? And given that most of this thread has been about starbucks, M & S etc - ie high street cafes or in department stores, we're talking about people who presumably have been able to make their way perectly well along the high street or around the store using a wheelchair, sticks or whatever, so the chances are they are perfectly able to queue anyway!!
If everyone adopted the policy that you queue and then choose your seat, with the proviso that only people incapable of queueing could sit down first, then there would be no problem!

I think it is highly unfair of cafes to take your money and not care where you sit. If you go to the theatre they only sell you a ticket if there is a seat, they will warn you if you can't sit together and you can choose whether to take them or not.
Cafes should only sell you food and drink if they have sufficient seats for your party. They could do this but it would need organisation and I don't think they care if they have your money-they are quite content to have a free for all!
It seems from this thread as if everyone politely queues, but if you look at at the beginning there were far more people who think a seat is the priority.
I shall exit from the thread but I have no intention of changing my behaviour, there would be no problem if everone adopted it.
I will write to M&S to complain, we need a fair, workable system-they shouldn't expect people to queue not knowing where they can sit.

But Abbey, I don't think cafes are taking people's money and not caring where they sit! It's not the staff who are bagging tables is it! As I said, IME, staff are only to happy to ask people to leave tables if they are sitting there not consuming items bought in the cafe. I have only a couple of times had to return to the till because there wasn't a free table for myself and the group I was with - both times, the staff asked the table baggers to move and let people who had actually purchased food sit there! Entirely reasonable!

AbbyA - you seem to continually miss the point about the bagging option not being available to people on their own. It really is not possible. If one does have shopping bags it is not safe to leave them - they get stolen. You also assume that singletons simply have to join a table with another singleton. This is not always possible; the last time I was left with nowhere to sit the only tables available were occupied by 'baggers' which is why I had to point out that as I had paid already for my drink then I had more right to a seat. The occupier didn't like it but I was firm. Not everyone has the confidence to be bolshy enough though.

Well, in that case abbey, it's also highly unfair for a shop to advertise an item of clothing and then not have it in your size. It's highly unfair to take your child to see Santa and then have to queue for one hour.

Customers then have to deal with that situation in a considerate manner for all concerned.

Wow - is this still going?!! I'm SO glad I'm not alone in hating table bagging, and delighted there are others out there who believe in taking their rightful place in a queue (ie THE BACK) when they enter a cafe.

Our M and S not only enforce the rule, but they also have a couple of seats for people who need them whilst their friend queues. It works wonderfully, the queue keeps moving through the cafe and everyone gets to eat the hot food they've just paid good money for. Oh - and it's delightful to see the table baggers stopped in their tracks

Wonderful. Go M and S (and all you other cafes who enforce common courtesy)

Wow, this discussion won't die!

It reminds me of how much I hate busy cafes -overpriced and stressful.

Much easier and far cheaper to pack a flask of coffee and a sandwich then find a convenient corner to have an inpromptu picnic.

blueshoes (and AbbeyA), I don't know about noble but I absolutely refuse to accept my consideration for others is pointless. I might not be able to "make" other people act more considerately I can at least add to the sum of consideration in the world by it.

Bagging tables in cafes (or not) is relatively trivial but, if someone cannot bother their backside to be considerate to others in that, in what other ways are they inconsiderate?

I'm also inflexible about leaving my shopping trolley blocking a car parking space at the supermarket (I don't do it. Ever). Is that also noble but pointless? Am I just making life unnecessarily difficult for myself. Or am I just doing what everyone ought to do?

I know what I think.

MsHighwater, where we are in fundamental disagreement is whether queueing without bagging is what people ought to do. I don't see it is an act of consideration, and don't thank anyone for doing it.

BTW, I don't leave trolleys in parking spaces either, even the M&T places. I clean up after using the sink in my office and don't leave dirty dishes or cups lying around. That we can agree.

blueshoes, it's really really simple. If you go into a cafe expecting to eat and it has a self-service system whereby you get your food yourself, then if you reserve a table for your party before getting your food, you are jumping the queue. No ifs, no buts, no maybes.

The point has been laboured, so I apologise for repeating it, but if I am alone, I cannot reserve a table (without leaving personal belongings vunerable to theft - it is unreasonable to expect me to do this) and am obliged to queue without being able to do anything about the table baggers who waltz in and "steal" the table where I would have sat. If the table baggers joined the queue, as they ought to do, I, or someone who came in even before I did, will have finished their meal or drinks by the time the other group is ready to sit and eat, freeing up the table.

MsHighwater, my point of view is really really simple as well (see previous posts). So we have to agree to disagree.

hmmm joined this a bit late, but in a lot of places by us you need a table (or a table number) before you place your order....that wya nobody gets served who doesnt have a table (unless thay are takeing their food out .....so this problem doesnt happen

I have sent an email to M&S about their policy-if or when they reply I will let you know.
You are taking the high moral ground MsHighwater but I can't tell you how annoying I find it for people to insist on queueing with children when they could sit them down out of the way of hot drinks. On my last visit a little girl came very close to scalding the woman next to her in the queue. She wasn't being naughty, she was just using the tray shelf in a child-like way!
Either system works, it only falls down when there are two ways of approaching it.
I have suggested to M&S that they have a ticket system and give people a table number as they join the queue.

I think your point is a bit of a red herring AbbeyA. A child not being properly supervised in the queue is a separate matter entirely - and presumably it would have been equally risky to let a child sit unsupervised at a table while the adult queued. A child isnt necessarily going to sit quietly and still while an adult queues for 10 minutes - they could be tipping their chair, being noisy or disturbing other customers. If a child isn't old enough to manage a tray with a hot drink or meal, then they can easily stand next to the adult in the queue who is supervising.
I still think it's entirely reasonable for selfservice cafes to expect customers to queue and then choose their table once they have purchased their food. It's not rocket science - it's a simple, fair system and it enables the cafe to regulate the flow of customers, so that if it's getting busy they aren't going to end up selling food to people who may then not get a seat. If people didnt have such a phobia about waiting in a queue for a few minutes, there wouldnt be a problem!!

We'll see if they answer, Abbey. Perhaps one of the biggest UK retailers is simply reacting to customer feedback. I can't believe for a second they would have the queue first system if a)the overwhelming majority of their customers didn't want it, and b)it didn't make financial sense.

The table baggers tend to operate in this way. Join the back of the queue. Spend time looking at what's on offer. Leave your order with one person, leave the queue, go in front of the person at the top of a queue, find and bag a table for their friend at the back.

That is queue jumping. No ifs, no buts.

I'm also still waiting for those of you who do queue jump to say whether or not you bag a space in a supermarket queue? Or if there is a queue to get into a car park - does one of you get out of the car and go and find a space, so that when your friends reach the top of the queue they have a space waiting for them????

PG is off to email M and S to congratulate them on their queue first policy.....

It wouldn't be rocket science for M&S to operate a ticket system that hands out a table number! Shoe shops and deli counters do it to make a fair queue. M&S have a reponsibility to their customers-they have just absolved themselves by putting up a notice that some people ignore and it isn't good enough.

They do have a responsibilty to their customers - which is precisely why they operate the fair and social policy of queue first, with a couple of chairs for people who can't queue for a few minutes!!!!!!!

Our M and S is great at enforcing the rule - and if they didn't it would be VERY easy to call a manager and ensure they did, simply by pointing to the sign.

No, it wouldnt be rocket science to have a ticket system. But the bottom line is, if people didn't ignore the notices (as you admit that you do AbbeyA) then there wouldnt be a need to change the system they have! I can't really follow the logic of your argument. You admit to not following the rule, and then blame M & S for it!!
Personally I wish cafes WOULD operate the ticket system, because it would sort the problem of table baggers out, but the fact remains that if everyone just followed the system that there in the first place there wouldn't be a problem to have to solve!!

I ignore it because other people ignore it, I also think it is civilized behaviour to have a table before you order the refreshments. I still don't see what M&S can do if I queue for 20 minutes to get lunch need a table for 4 and the management can't find me a table for 4 because they are all occupied with people eating.I can either let it get cold while I wait or have my money back, in which case I am back to square one and have wasted 30 mins. All easily avoided because I wouldn't have queued if I had known. With the best will in the world, if it is very busy and if everyone has followed the system there may just not be a table large enough for four.
It makes me want to run a cafe-I would put a big notice at the door saying you must find a table before you order!! (those with no one to keep it would put a reserved notice on it).

There would still be a problem findtheriver.
Queuing first only works if the cafe is relatively empty, and that isn't the scenario we've been talking about for days. Yes, if you walk into an empty cafe you can easily queue, get your food then sit down. Although even in that scenario, I would get my children to tell us what they want, then send them to sit down. Why on earth would all 5 of us queue when at least 3 of us could be sitting down in a civilised manner?

If it is busier, it is virtually impossible to guarantee you will get a seat. If everyone is standing in a queue and there are say 5 or 6 or however many tables left, you CANNOT work out how many tables those people will occupy because you don't know how many groups they are in.

It is wholly unreasonable to expect anyone to stand mindlessly in a queue and pay and perhaps still not get the table they require for their particular group. It's all very well saying it's for the cafe to manage, but if I've queued and then found there still isn't a table, or our party would have to split up, what can they do about that?

I really can't believe there is overwhelming public demand for that sort of system. M&S is the only place I know which has signs up to that effect, other cafe owners and managers don't seem to mind customers getting their seats first, in fact many actively promote this system - I have seen more signs saying something like 'please find a table then place your order at the counter'. So much more sensible and less stressful for everyone concerned. That's what we want after all - a system that is fair and works for everyone. How can those who prefer queuing first not see how much fairer and easier it is for every single customer if on entering the cafe they know at once if there is a table for them? The problem lies with M&S's existing rules.

It doesn't really impact on me - I prefer table service every time, and usually get a nicer environment and better food for the same cost or even less! M&S cafes aren't even that nice!