To wish that people would not bag a seat first and THEN get their food in a busy cafe...

[paolosgirl]

because those of us who reached the head of the queue before your pal who's way at the back of the queue now have to wander aimlessly about holding a tray with food or drink on it that's now getting cold, because we CAN'T GET A BLARDY TABLE because they're all full of people holding seats for their pals in the queue.

ARGHHHHHH....

Actually, IMNBU at all. I'm being perfectly reasonable (and probably a bit of PMT involved here, granted), but does this wind anyone else up, or shall I just go and have a wee lie down?

Ecoworrier, you always manage to say it so much better than me! I agree 100%. The whole point of going into a cafe is for pleasure-entirely spoilt if you spend 20 stressful minutes in a queue worrying about where or if you can sit at the end of it.

Oh I totally agree with you there Eco. I wouldnt choose to eat in an M & S. I would also have no problem with cafes adopting the 'reserve a table first and then queue' policy, so long as there is a means for singletons to reserve a table, and not simply rely on other people. Yes, it's all about having ONE system; not a system that gets flouted. Which is what this thread has been about. Incidentally, I have NEVER been in a situation where I have purchased food and then not been able to eat it because the cafe is full of people eating. Twice I have not been able to find a table for my group, but that was because of table baggers. I simply returned to the till, and a member of staff told people who were sitting at tables not eating, to leave and allow people who had purchased food to use them. Which is entirely reasonable. Also, I personally wouldnt go anywhere that I had to queue for 30 minutes - life's too short. Yes, a reserving tables system would be best, but frankly, given that many cafes, particularly in department stores, cater for people who want a quick coffee before moving on, I think the queue, choose and then sit system is likely to remain in many establishments. And so long as it does, it doesnt seem too hard to ask people to follow it!

I hardly ever use M&S either. You are herded through the system, and they want you in and out as quickly as possible.
I have found a hotel in the middle of a nearby town where you sit down in a lounge and a waiter takes your order. You eat your lunch and can sit there as long as you like, they don't bother you or give you a bill. You pay on the way out. It doesn't cost much more than M&S and it is a very pleasurable experience. Unfortunately more people are discovering it and it was much busier last time.

You keep missing the point, Abbey! If it's full with people eating, then you can see straight away that it's busy and either a)not join the queue, or b)leave the queue.

If (as happened to me the other day at Starbucks - you no doubt saw my earlier post), you go into a cafe, see vacant tables, think it's OK to queue and then get a table, and the table baggers come in BEHIND you and bag a table, then it's impossible for customers who have done the decent, polite thing and queued to know whether that vacant table will stay vacant or not.

It's the queue jumping and table bagging that causes the problems, as no-one knows whether the tables will be taken in advance or not - how can you not see that???!!!!!!

I presume you don't get out of your car in a car park queue and go and bag a space?

Ecoworrier explained the queue perfectly. If people bag tables it is easy to work our whether you will get one. Otherwise if there are 18 people in the queue how can you possibly know whether they want 18 tables, 9 tables, or 3 tables or any other combination?
Bagging a car park space is just silly!
People who have all queued haven't done the polite thing IMO-they are irritating.

Parking a car is a necessity. Coffe or lunch is not a necessity and I would rather do without either than have an unpleasant experience. The whole point is that it is a treat and pleasurable, and often social. The table is of prime importance.

Really - bagging a car space in advance to ensure you get one is silly, is it? Are you not seeing the parallels??!!

BTW - I have actually seen people bagging car parking spaces on two occasions, simply by standing in them. You can imagine the furore that caused.

You are ignoring the fact that you are jumping the queue by bagging a table.

I have seen people bagging car parking spaces-it is not a parallel. In a car park I can drive around and wait until someone moves, they will eventually. I am not driving around the car park with hot coffee that I can't drink until I park. If I can't get one, I haven't paid any money and I simply drive on to another car park. I have no objection to the cafe queue being too long to get a table, I will happily go elsewhere, but I have a big objection to a cafe selling me things when I haven't got, and don't know whether I will get a table. If everyone queues without a table it is perfectly possible that there are simply too many people and no free tables.
M&S and I want different things. They want as many people passing through as possible, I want a pleasant long, leisurely lunch.
I don't eat out very often and I don't think it is too much to expect that I can have a table!

ecoworrier = "Why on earth would all 5 of us queue when at least 3 of us could be sitting down". Because, in a self-service cafe, as we have discussed over and over again, you would be jumping the queue! The problem is caused by the baggers, not the queuers.

AbbeyA - "lunch is not a necessity" - oh really? Might I suggest, in that case, that you and your friend avoid taking up space in a cafe altogether, save yourselves the worry about whether you'll get a table and go somewhere else to not have lunch, then? It would seem the simplest solution.

paolosgirl, there was a case in Glasgow a few years ago where a woman was jailed over an altercation in a car park as a result of which another woman died. One of the women was standing in a parking space to reserve it for her husband, blocking the other woman and her husband who had got to the space in their car first. There was an argument, it got physical and the 2nd woman collapsed with a heart attack (or something like it).

Lunch is a pleasant,social activity -it is not a necessity. I often meet a friend for lunch-it is for fun-the same way as you might go to the theatre for fun or ice skating for fun.Everyone is talking as if the food is the only important thing and it doesn't matter how you do it. The table is far more important than the food.People don't want to go in-quickly eat and leave.
Are you suggesting MsHighwater that people who want to have a sociable lunch have no right to be there? Why do I have to only have lunch if it is a necessity? To suggest that my friend and I 'go somewhere else not to have lunch'is ridiculous -when we have met specifically to have lunch not through necessity but to be sociable.

Lunch is a pleasant,social activity -it is not a necessity. I often meet a friend for lunch-it is for fun-the same way as you might go to the theatre for fun or ice skating for fun.Everyone is talking as if the food is the only important thing and it doesn't matter how you do it. The table is far more important than the food.People don't want to go in-quickly eat and leave.
Are you suggesting MsHighwater that people who want to have a sociable lunch have no right to be there? Why do I have to only have lunch if it is a necessity? To suggest that my friend and I 'go somewhere else not to have lunch'is ridiculous -when we have met specifically to have lunch not through necessity but to be sociable.

Sorry-never know why it comes up twice!

AbbeyA, you came up with it yourself. If you want to be sociable, lunch is not necessary and you dislike feeling unsure whether you'll get a table, then just don't have lunch. Meet your friend and go skating or whatever. That way everyone wins since the cafes will operate more smoothly and those of us who want to eat can have a table to eat at when we need it (and not before!)

Lunch is just as justifiable leisure activity as ice skating! Strangely enough people go out for meals as an occasion in their own right. I think that you will find that a lot of people if asked to list favourite activities they would put eating out! I have one friend that I meet for Christmas shopping. We have a day out, go shopping separately meet up for lunch and go back to shopping separately. On my own I may well miss out lunch because it is not a necessity but I would much prefer to eat. I don't actually want to shop, ice skate and shop! Actually when our DCs were young we used to meet and ice skate but now that we don't have to take the DCs we prefer lunch.
No one needs morning coffee (unless diabetic)they go because they would like a break, feel a bit jaded or want to have a sociable chat.If I go with my mother I do it for the outing-we could easily have coffee at home.
Cafes would close down if people only went out of necessity.

Hmm, I was once in a cafe that was NOT busy, I got up from my table to get a refill of tea, and some guy came, MOVED all my stuff from my table and sat down! FFS there were empty tables all around and this W**r took my table. I wished afterwards that I had kicked up a fuss

You should have done AnnVan!
Perhaps I ought to say that I don't actually bag tables! If out with friends I choose either waitress service, somewhere that expects you to sit down before you order or somewhere where there are enough tables for everyone to sit down even if busy and then people can do either and no one cares. I have never had a problem in Debenhams, for example, we can queue together and know that we will find a table.
The only M&S one that I use for refreshments is a big out of town one.
I take my mother if she is staying because she has a chronic medical condition and can't walk far. We go for the outing. She has a disability parking badge so we park near the door and have a short walk around and then I let her sit down at a table while I get coffee. People have said that this is acceptable, however I think that I will find it stressful from now on because she looks able bodied when sitting down and I can see that some interfering, self righteous person may well take it upon themselves to upset her by accusing her of queue jumping!
I tend to go on my own and often have a coffee at the popular time. As a lone person in the queue I would much prefer that people chose a seat first because I can then work out whether to join the queue. If people insist on every single person in their party queuing I have absolutely no idea how many tables are going to be used.
Therefore you have no need to get annoyed with me. I am making the point that it is not good enough for the management to leave people with a free for all. M&S have a responsibility to the customer and could easily devise a ticket system.

I am not keen on self service cafes. I think cafes should SERVE their customers! I always try and choose one with waitress service if possible even if it means a greasy spoon!

Self service is hopeless with young children or elderly relatives.

I only go to self service if the queue doesn't look too long. I always bag a table first but not to jump the queue, more to carry everything and make sure everyone is comfortable. Sorry, but there is no other way when you have young children and/or heavy shopping or elderly relatives!

it is queue jumping and bad manners imo

I don't bag tables and if I get my food and there are tables with people sitting on them with no food, I ask that they move or get the people in the cafe to ask them to move.

I've got my food and have paid for it and they haven't. Simple.

If all the tables are full of people eating, then the cafe have to refund you unless you are willing to wait for a table. Also you have some idea of whether a cafe is busy or not when you go in. And if you don't like the look of how busy it is, then don't go in!

I think the M&S policy is fine (they do it at ours too) and if your email changes their policy AbbeyA, I shall be most annoyed.

I agree oi. I think this whole thing idea of queueing for hours, then maybe not finding a seat is bolleaux! Most people would go somewhere else anyway if the queue is ridiculously long. If it's a busy period and there are table baggers, then as you rightly say, oi, the cafe has to refund you or find you a space - and IME they prefer to find you a space. People who havent yet bought something clearly have less of a claim than people who have. Look at it this way - you are paying for the whole experience - ie purchasing your food AND having a place to eat it in the cafe. Having said that, I would never go to M&S cafe for a quality, pleasurable experience of eating out; it's not a social occasion, most people seem to grab a quick coffee and maybe sandwich before moving on. Which is probably why the system is fine. If you want a social occasion, people are far more likely to want waitress service.

yes exactement findtheriver.

On this subject I was very impressed with John Lewis yesterday. After waiting in the queue for some time getting sandwiches for me and banana for DD we eventually started the hunt for a table. The manager of the section saw me looking with pushchair and tray and called over one of the table clearers who then took the tray from me and cleared a path to the nicest table in the place, knocking elderly ladies out of the way to stop them bagging it. Evil of me as there were plenty of seats but

Not evil at all! You had waited your turn in the queue, paid for your food and then you needed assistance with your tray. That was the right thing to do.

You're still not seeing the parallel with the car parking, are you Abbey. It's the act of jumping the queue. If you go into a cafe, wait in the queue and then look for a table, then it is the same as going into a car park, waiting in the queue and then looking for a space. The table baggers and space baggers are the ones who JUMP THE QUEUE AND CAUSE THE PROBLEMS.

I feel the urge to find a wall made of bricks and bang my head against it repeatedly.

MsHighwater - I remember that case of the woman being killed in the car park (we live near Edinburgh and it was all over the Scottish news for a while). It was very sad

Paolosgirl, when you find the brick wall, let me know.

I think AbbeyA is being deliberately obtuse. Abbey, of course you are perfectly entitled to go for lunch if that is what you wish. It was you who said the lunch was not a necessity for you (it generally is for me, though) so I merely suggested a possible solution to your dilemma about whether you would find a seat in a cafe - go somewhere else for your social occasion.

However, if you are going to go to a cafe and it is self-service and there is no other system for you to reserve a table (e.g. a ticket system or whatever) then the system that applies is that you queue first, then find your table. I'm certain that you'd find, if no-one bags tables before they have their food, you will not, suddenly and unexpectedly, find that you cannot get a table (except perhaps if you are in an unusually large party, in which case, you would be best advised to go somewhere that you can reserve a table of the appropriate size). In a cafe that operates in that manner, you should obey that rule. Otherwise, and there are no 2 ways about it, you are jumping the queue. If the uncertainty of it all is too much for you, then go somewhere that has a different system. Everyone will be happier that way.

I think Abbey has already said above that she doesn't actually bag tables, she votes with her feet and chooses places with more sensible systems! As do I.

However, many on here have admitted that there should only be one system and that in fact a reasonable system of reserving a table is the best answer - even findariver, while seemingly arguing throughout in favour of queuing, has admitted that a fair system of reserving tables 'would be best' as long as it catered for single people too. Abbey and others have shown how such a system would be easy to implement.

So surely we shouldn't just let cafes continue to insist on inefficient systems if much better and fairer systems actually exist. That's what Abbey has said very clearly and eloquently many times in the last few days. It's all very well saying that if rules are in force, we should adhere to them - but why not try to push for better systems in the first place? Otherwise you're just letting management off the hook when they could easily provide a better service for all their customers.

We have said it many many times on this thread, but many establishments function very well indeed by letting, or even requiring, their customers select tables first, so the system obviously can and does work.

Luckily though, it really isn't a problem for the likes of Abbey and myself. We will continue to take our custom to more enlightened establishments!