to think NCT antenatal courses are pretty much a load of crap???!

[Gateau]

What a waste of money. Yes, you meet some good friends from it, but IMO that's one of the only positives.
They draw over about six weeks what could be said in one or two classes. All the members of our course said that.
The course is almost all about the woman's 'birth experience' which I found just makes women obsess about the birth itself. So many women I knew were "disappointed" with the birth, when surely it's not all about teh birth, but more about the wonderful reward you get at the end?And they barely touch on having a C-section - which is what I had.
And there's all this rubbish about "challenging" the medical staff when they suggest you have a C-section- with what energy, after 14 hours in labour? And when they say either have a c-section or risk endangering you and the baby, what choice is there?
our NCT teacher asked me to do a talk to her new group post-baby - or rather I was the only one who said I would. She very much disliked that fact that I was telling them I bottle-fed (because we are breaking the breastfeeding law, of course)and that I DIDN'T advocate sitting around the house in pjs after the baby was born - it doesn't suit everyone's state of mind. The NCT IMO is dogmatic.
I think the NCT course would be much more productive if it focused a little more on the early parenting side of things - that's where me and most of my NCT friends could have done with the advice!!

Yes - the fees are the only downside!
I would have done the classes again with dcs 2 and 3, but even with us both working,we couldnt afford it, as by now of course we had nursery fees for dc1 !!
I felt the course was very good though and worth the money if you pay.

I never went to any Antenatal classes. I wasn't well enough to go to some of them plus just thought it was a waste of time TBH.

fees - they are expensive. we are used to essential services being funded for free at point of service and AN classes surely are essential.

The state should fund more AN classes and should offer a selection of alternatives - this is done for other state provisions and there is no reason why a range of providers couldn't bid to win a contract in their local area.

I am not knocking the nct per se BUT am surprised at the defensiveness shown on this thread by AN teachers. Nobody is knocking you or really the NCT generally but stating their own experiences. You cannot invalidate their experience.

The OP stated "The NCT IMO is dogmatic" as part of her criticism specifically of the NCT and yes, many people on this thread have criticised both the teachers (too middle class, too flakey, too fluffy, not trained or supervised adequately etc) and the organisation as a whole so I'm not surprised the teachers feel defensive.

Agree re. AN classes however - my local hospital, which is superb in many respects - does not offer them, which is shocking. Local NCT classes are heavily oversubscribed...

It is shocking - AN classes should be available free of charge. I actually attended the AN classes at my local midwife unit as well as NCT, and I found that they complemented eachother. There was more emphasis on natural birth with the NCT, and on breathing exercises etc but that was what I wanted, so it suited me. The other AN classes were informative, but they wouldnt have left me feeling so equipped to cope with a natural birth tbh

By fabsmum on Mon 04-Aug-08 08:57:39

Just thought I'd say hello. It has been interesting to see such a range of views expressed about NCT courses. A lot of NCT specialist workers have looked at what?s been said too and it has been very helpful.

The charity provides classes for about 10% of all first time parents - so we are bound not to be right for everyone. But the best way to get something improved is to tell us about it. On the website www.nct.org.uk there is a section where you can comment or complain and that comes straight to me. So please do let me know what you think.

This charity is about information, choice and support so what the courses should do is give you - or show you where to get - evidence based information so you can make a choice and put you together with others at the same life stage so you can support each other once the course has finished.

There are a variety of courses ? some cover birth alone ? some are for women only ? some for couples ? we provide courses for more than a thousand teenagers expecting a baby ? we work with all sorts of communities and in all sorts of places including prisons ? we teach classes for and with the NHS in some places ? we train midwives so they are better able to provide interactive antenatal courses.

In all cases the NCT teacher should ask you what you want to cover so the course content varies depending on who is leading the course.

Some courses cover only birth issues some cover more. However our experience is that people do not take in the stuff about life with a new baby very well because the birth seems like a big thing in their mind. But you can have the free copy of our new DVD ?Mums the word? which covers a lot of this www.nct.org.uk

We do follow the WHO Code on the marketing of breastmilk substitutes (www.ibfan.org/english/resource/who/fullcode.html ) as all midwives should and this means we should not be proactively teaching you how to use formula in pregnancy. But we have an info sheet on using formula www.nct.org.uk/info-centre/a-to-z/view/50 and our breastfeeding counsellors can talk you though this if need be. Teachers do respond to questions on formula if they come up. We focus on breastfeeding rather than formula because no one makes money out of breatsfeeding so if we hadn?t provided information services and support in the past ? there would be no breastfeeding in the UK by now. More than 90% of women say they want to breastfeed and sadly many are not able to carry out their wish though lack of support.

The general lie of the evidence, which is now enshrined in policy in 3 or the 4 countries in the UK, is that the safest birth for the majority of women is a vaginal birth and a straight forward vaginal birth with out a major medical intervention or a series of minor ones ( frequent vaginal examinations) is less likely to be a traumatising experience. There are an excess of caesarean births so some are being carried out where neither mother of baby will be gaining any medical benefit and will in fact be at increased risk. There is a proportion for women ? maybe 10% - may be 15% who will benefit from a c section. These generalisations are based on masses of data so there will be people who are exceptions. There are some women who by reasons of past trauma or fear want to choose a caesarean or alternatively be out of hospital all together and have a home birth. It is not for anyone to judge and the charity aims to inform and support so where it doesn?t do this well I apologise. We have nearly 2000 people training or providing these services so they do vary in different places.

We are a charity and all the services we provide are not there to make a profit. In fact they don?t make a profit and we subsidise them and our branches fundraise for this and to support all the other work we do. If you are on a low income we provide low rates for you and for groups in particular need the courses are free. If you are in one of the area where the NCT provides the courses though the NHS you will get them free. The training we provide for midwives is done at the lowest price we can so we can reach as many midwives and possible and spread the skills.

You do not have to be a member to use any of the support of services the charity provides but if you think what we do is important and you want to make things different for parents in the future then do please join and help us with the donation you make as a member or volunteer to run local services for parents of join nct active www.nct.org.uk/active/ and help us get change made where its needed.

Belinda (NCT CEO)

NCTCEO - thank you for your informative post. You explain very clearly what the NCT is, and how it operates.
I am particularly interested in the paragraph about giving birth, and the statistics and how overall, vaginal birth without interventions is considered the safest method.
I suppose the issue is that when people have had a different experience, maybe a csection, or a very medicalised birth, they can feel quite vulnerable about it and respond by questioning whether it's right that the NCT has promoted natural childbirth. As you say, there will always be exceptions to the rule, and the NCT is fully supportive of all women. But I for one think it's good that the NCT exists to promote methods which all the data prove are safest.

hi belinda, NCTCEO, thanks for popping into mumsnet to give us some more info.

I do hope that you have read the range of views expressed and understand that many of these have not been wholesale antiNCT but do indeed express the feelings of people when in a vulnerable state.

I wonder whether you include communication skills in the training for AN teachers -ime this is an important skill for health & social care workers too.

I would hope you could take on board my point (and others) that there needs to be arange of provision available of which NCT should be one of course

Have not read thread but want to add my ten pence worth as I have strong views on NCT

1. Not medically trained - why on earth would I trust their views then???
2. Ridiculously expensive - although says it voluntary
3. V white, middle class - not my bag I'm afraid
4. Have many friends who have been and when it came to birth they did not feel prepared at all. They thought they could "breathe" the baby out and then reaised the reality
5. One friend of mine attended and 8 out of 9 of them ended up having a c section. Possibly circumstance/co-incidence but I think it was lack of prep

All very biaised view I do understand and I know that many have a good experience but not for me thanks - largely because of number 1

I met a group of great friends when pg with ds1 and 7 years on we still meet up. The course was very focused on the birth and breastfeeding. The lady was great. In hindsight, now having had 3 and struggled to bf my first - someone could have said something along the lines of 'bf doesn't work for everyone, its okay to bottle feed' rather than torturing myself for weeks.

In comparison, with ds3 I did NCT breathing and relaxation classes and they were fab but the NHS class on breastfeeding was shockingly bad.

"1. Not medically trained - why on earth would I trust their views then???"

Antenatal teachers don't give medical advice or deliver babies. They teach. They do a three year training in order to teach antenatal classes. There are midwives who are fantastic at setting up drips, doing suturing, and delivering babies but are entirely crap at teaching parents about the birth or early parenting BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO TEACHING SKILLS. I think you'll find that many people who are taught by midwives on NHS courses also think they're poor. I know my NHS classes were dire. Also worth pointing out that a good number of NCT teachers are also midwives and doulas.

1. Ridiculously expensive - although says it voluntary

£10 per person for a two hour session in my view isn't 'ridiculously' expensive. Besides which, if you're on a low income/benefits you can get a place on a course for very, very little.

1. V white, middle class - not my bag I'm afraid

I live in South London. Of the couples on the course I'm teaching right now one is Nigerian/German, one is Indian/German, one couple is Asian, one couple is white English, one couple is Albanian/English and one couple is Australian. This is fairly typical of my courses. Of the six couples I teach on each course at least two couples will be non white-English. This fairly represents the ethnic make up of where I live.

I also teach single parents and people on low incomes.

1. Have many friends who have been and when it came to birth they did not feel prepared at all. They thought they could "breathe" the baby out and then reaised the reality

People don't feel usually don't feel prepared for birth no matter what they're told. I went to a standard NHS class myself. I was still shell-shocked by the birth.

1. One friend of mine attended and 8 out of 9 of them ended up having a c section. Possibly circumstance/co-incidence but I think it was lack of prep.

So what sort of preparation do you think would stop people having c-sections? The research shows there are only two things you can do that in statistical terms can impact on your chances of having a c-section: have a homebirth and employ a doula, both things I suspect you are more likely to do if you've attended an NCT class.

Octo:
"someone could have said something along the lines of 'bf doesn't work for everyone, its okay to bottle feed'"

I think you'll find that most antenatal teachers, specialist midwives and bf counsellors don't feel it's their role to give women 'permission' not to breastfeed by telling them 'it doesn't matter if you don't do it'. That's a decision only mothers themselves can make.

On a personal note, people did say exactly this to me when I was struggling with breastfeeding my first. I overcame my problems eventually and looking back, if I had stopped it WOULD have mattered to me. It wasn't OK for me to bottlefeed - I didn't want to do it. Only you know how important - or unimportant, breastfeeding is to you.

Excellent post fabsmum

amen to not using the 'it's okay to bottlefeed' line, fabsmum. used to drive me mad. i wanted help with bfing, not absolution. very irritating.

(not that i think that's quite what the poster was saying but it still used to make me want to punch 'helpful' people in the face).

Don't know where you get the energy from fabsmum but good for you for consistently intelligent, rational, well-informed posts.

(On a different note, hope your poor dog is better...)

Thankyou staranise, dog at super-expensive doggy hospital - still poorly.

It's going to cost £4500 to fix her leg apparently.

Thank goodness for that huge overpayment of tax-credits I got two years ago that I still haven't paid back.

If it wasn't for that she'd be doomed.

Message withdrawn

why thankyou pruni. poor old NCT taking quite a bashing on here. people are so ungrateful, aren't they, let's be honest...

Message withdrawn

you're on my FB, let me see if i can remember your RL name...

Fabsmum, some people just don't want to face up to their own prejudices and are scared that classes will inform them of the dangers of a course of action that they want to take.

For the same reason, some people are disappointed when they see a bfc who does not immediately "give them permission" to bottlefeed. They want to tell every one - I couldn't breastfeed, even the bfc told me to give baby a bottle.

My experience of an NHS antenatal class (when pg with No 2) was

too many couples, v crowded and impersonal.

mw asked me v personal question about my first birth in front of every one.

mw delivered long lecture about what would happen when, during labour. Gave impression that labouring woman had no choices in the procedure at all - which is of course not true.

On the other hand, our local surgery also did daytime Relaxation & Exercise classes for pg women which were very good. Lots about pelvic floor and how to minimise back pain. Every week some one who had previously attended the class would bring in her new baby and tell us how it went. That was very educational and made a deep impression on me.

"They want to tell every one - I couldn't breastfeed, even the bfc told me to give baby a bottle."

i think that's a perfectly reasonable desire actually, we all want to feel we have done our very best and given it our best shot. i didn't want to be patted on the head and told it didn't matter, sure, but i did get some sense of validation when a bfc said that i couldn't have tried any harder than i had done, and she respected my efforts. it helped a lot.

But Dilly it still has to be your decision when/if to make the change. Perhaps the bfc validated your decision AFTER you had made it?