to think NCT antenatal courses are pretty much a load of crap???!

[Gateau]

What a waste of money. Yes, you meet some good friends from it, but IMO that's one of the only positives.
They draw over about six weeks what could be said in one or two classes. All the members of our course said that.
The course is almost all about the woman's 'birth experience' which I found just makes women obsess about the birth itself. So many women I knew were "disappointed" with the birth, when surely it's not all about teh birth, but more about the wonderful reward you get at the end?And they barely touch on having a C-section - which is what I had.
And there's all this rubbish about "challenging" the medical staff when they suggest you have a C-section- with what energy, after 14 hours in labour? And when they say either have a c-section or risk endangering you and the baby, what choice is there?
our NCT teacher asked me to do a talk to her new group post-baby - or rather I was the only one who said I would. She very much disliked that fact that I was telling them I bottle-fed (because we are breaking the breastfeeding law, of course)and that I DIDN'T advocate sitting around the house in pjs after the baby was born - it doesn't suit everyone's state of mind. The NCT IMO is dogmatic.
I think the NCT course would be much more productive if it focused a little more on the early parenting side of things - that's where me and most of my NCT friends could have done with the advice!!

i think it can turn on a dime, unfortunately. one comment from a teacher, one strong (obnoxious ) character, or even one (arsehole) person who can't deal with disability and makes that known to the rest of a group etc. but wherever people gather, for whatever reason, 'twas ever thus.
i'm glad i never experienced this fluffy thing. of the six of us on our class, two bottlefed pretty much from the beginning, two mix-fed and two bf well up to a year. one had a crash cs, three had epidurals, two or maybe three inductions, no water or home births, one did the gas and air only thing but only because it was so bloomin' quick etc... a real mix. but, and i know this because i've asked, everyone felt pretty okay about their experiences and put that at least in part down to the information gathered in those classes.

Oh, and if you think NCT is too fluffy...my friend went to a La Leche meeting (in Spain)and was served cupcakes made with one member's breastmilk...

hang on, chonky... this woman... was she an NCT representative or just a silly cow at a coffee morning?

You're right of course Aitch, and there were lovely people in my group. Some of it is partly down to the fact that when you have a dc with a disability you do end up in a 'different place' emotionally, and I found myself going to SN groups for support (not something that my NCT peers could relate to, nor would I expect them to).

What would be useful is for there to be more SN groups within the NCT, to stop us being lone pariahs, and also to help establish some understanding that it wasn't something we did or didn't do during pregnancy/ labour. I found the implication (from 'strong character' woman ) that I'd done something to my dc during labour awful tbh.

She was a silly cow at the meeting.

However NCT chairwoman fecking useful - phoned me up to offer me sympathy for the birth of my dd.

Had another member of NCT committee tell me that she hugged her dd extra tight that night when she heard about my dd being disabled .

at cakes

useless, not useful!

Although I was a member of the NCT and broadly supportive of their aims I have to say that as DS1 was born early (natural birth with just gas and air) and same with DS2 and a reluctant DH (now ex) I don't think that there was anything really I could not have found out beforehand through my own research.

In hindsight the birth itself is a minor part of it all and it is best to focus on what comes after, because that is the real challenge tbh

Both my births were OK not that traumatci. I was always of a non dogmatic view about everything and I really think that helps throughout birth and early chldhood.

Of course you're right Chonky re. the need for more groups (and I can't believe what that woman said to you!!). The problem is that local groups are set up as and when we can find a volunteer to do it, eg, my branch has recently set up a PND group purely because one mother who had suffered awful PND wanted to find/support other women with similar experience. We have groups for working mothers & multiples for the same reason but are looking out for people who will run other groups that we get asked for eg, SN or single parents etc.

As I've said before, NCT at branch level is run by volunteers who are almost 100% mothers with pre-school children - a demographic with understandably very little time and/or inclination for voluntary work!

ah, but that hindsight... it's a while coming. i personally couldn't look past the birth with dd, didn't want to jinx it or something.

and i'm sure chonky and riven are right wrt the NCT/SN issue, i imagine it's a time when a lot of people say the wrong thing. take me, for example, just having said that i couldn't look past the birth. really the subtext is 'because i feared something going 'wrong'' which at that point definitely included death and disability).

it is, however, shocking to think that someone would 'offer' sympathy if it weren't asked for, or to be so crass as to say they were extra-grateful for an NT child when faced with the mother of a child with SN... that is shitty. i wonder if there is a guideline or something in a handbook somewhere that instructs NCT reps in what may or may not be helpful to say at that time? if not, there should be. i wonder if you guys should get your heads together and write something for them, i bet it would be really helpful. i know the ed of the NCT mag, if you want i can suggest an article to her. might be a small start?

"I'm sure the NCT is all well and good when everything is 'normal', but I think they struggle to be inclusive if you start to stray away from the norm."

That made me think about one of the couples from my last course. Planned waterbirth in a very right on birth centre. Ended up with c-section in local hospital. Baby born with previously undiagnosed heart problem and had open heart surgery at a week. The rest of the group rallied round, have been texting supportive messages, doing the phoning round to give updates on baby's progress for friends and family and have basically been completely lovely and brilliant.

I've had another couple have a baby with Downs - totally unexpected, and it was a first pregnancy at 38 after 3 goes at IVF. This mum has had rock solid support from the NCT locally - visits from bfc's and teachers, help to contact local support groups for Downs.

Other teachers can tell you many, many similar stories.

Riven - I'm sorry you had such poor support from people. The NCT can't legislate for individual members who are basically uncaring arseholes.

"I agree the NCT has done a lot but they still tout the whole natural thing"

Sorry - what do you mean by this? Most women want to have their baby without the use of instruments if this is possible for them. Is there something wrong with lobbying for changes to maternity services so that women have more of a chance of having a safe, healthy, normal birth? Or of teaching women about what they can do to help themselves in labour?

The NCT are no more pro normal birth than the RCM - and I don't hear many women on here slagging off midwives for wanting more women to give birth without complications.

Guidelines are given to NCT editors in general eg, not to refer to a 'normal' birth (as why can't a cs be normal), refer to a 'child with DS' rather than a 'DS child'. Not sure if anything is handed out to keyworkers but I think, if anything, the NCT tends to err on the side of the politically correct.

TBH, Aitch, at a branch level, we are not NCT reps but volunteers - my views are not representative of the NCT (and I was an NCT editor). Even the teachers in our area are not employees of the NCT but rather NCT-trained who offer courses via the NCT and are free to work for whoever they like (and do) - hence why membership fees are not included with course fees. This is a recent change but another reason why one stupid person/teacher/volunteer is not indicative of the organisation as a whole.

to be fair to my teacher, she did ask if any of us knew in advance if our children would have SN, and that did open up a brief discussion. was that a good enough way to raise it, do you think?

i'm talking about the ed of the big shiny mag they send out to all members, certainly when i've worked for them before they go through the language with a fine tooth comb. i still think it's a good idea for a national piece in bumps and babes.

fabsmum - it sounds as though your group/ experiences with the NCT have been great, which is a good thing.

However, it doesn't change the comments that were made to me at the time, and at the end of the day, we can only go on our own experiences and perceptions of the NCT. Mine weren't great tbh, but ho hum. Maybe it's unique to my local branch.

Sorry Aitch - only just read your post now. That may well be a positive thing that we could do; four years on I do feel in a better place where I could hopefully say something constructive

And I do acknowledge how hard it must have been for the other mums in my group (that's not to say that some of their behaviour was good or right) - as you say meeting someone with a profoundly disabled baby in the early months would immediately bring to life the fears that we all have during pregnancy/ the first few months.

Or you could start by writing for your local branch Chonky - we always carry 'POV' piece and recently had one by a new mum and her experience of giving birth to a baby with DS. Also, articles at branch level are often shared with other branches aroudn the so you would reach a wider audience than you might think.

so what would you want it to cover, chonky?

"around the UK"...

NCT, expensive and aimed at 'certain types' in my experience. I was going to become a breastfeeding adviser for the NCT, but i didnt want to 'preach to the converted' so to speak. Would rather help in an underprivaliged area where breast feeding is virtually 'never considered' . Just one success there would make it so worthwhile.