to think this woman is a cow? (topic may offend/upset)

[crazybuslady]

Was waiting for a bus yesterday, while at bus stop I saw a mother, dd (approx age 4) and grandma come to bus stop, had seen them earlier walking down the street.

DD didnt want to go on the bus she was crying saying she wanted to stay with granny. Mother mentioned to granny than dd was tired - hadnt slept that day. Mother started to wind the child up eg "you ARE going on the bus"..."noooo mummy dont want to" ..."well you are so there!"

Petty back and forth argument which was frankly rediculas, dd tried to walk away from the bus stop, the mother turned it in to an almost game, mother was laughing and chasing her but shouting swear words at her and telling her she was going to "batter you when we get in" I was Then heard a whack, and looked round to see the mum hit the child 2x. Child started sobbing - from her point of view mum was chasing her laughing next min she was being hit)

Now hittings not to my taste, but I realise some people do this so I just tried to look away - small bus stop though so not really possible.

Child was then wingey (was being ignored by mum who only spoke to her to swear at her) Child then said "I am NOT goin on bus I want to go to grannys" (I though no fekking wonder) And the mother literally dragged dd by her arm along ground. DD fell to ground sobbing, mother grabbed her collar and lifted her up by it shouting and swearing and whacked her 5 more times.

At this point bus came, I told woman if she hit her dd in my sight once more id call police. (Now in retrospect I shouldnt have said that, I should have just called, but I was furious and not thinking straight) We got on same bus mother told me to "fucking go ahead then"...so I did. (mother was now dragging child up bus by arm, I dont mean pulling I mean literally dragging, then whacking her again when she wouldnt sit on seat.

Police car was sent right away but didnt arrive in time before she got off the bus I gave a description etc. But as she got off woman threatened to "batter my face in, if she hadnt got the child with her" (I felt like saying go on then, Id rather take the pain than a poor child, then you will go to prison, child will go to foster care and be better off)

I wish Id followed them, police didnt get them If I ever see them again will phone again.

If she does that in public wtf does she do at home.

eh?

I spent months training my dog to walk to heel. He's huge, very strong and very wilful and because he's a rescue he was allowed to get to adult size without ever learning to walk on the lead.

I have fought with him, been pulled over by him, spent hundreds of pounds on having a trainer for him, generally been dragged around every single day for an hour a day by him.

I can't begin to explain how frustrated he made me. I never hit him though, not once. I wouldn't hit a dog that wound me up, let alone a small child.

(btw he's finally trained now!)

abuse is an action(physical or verbal) or threat that causes anxiety,pain (physical or psychological)fear.frasermum do you need physical evidence before it merits abuse?Bruises, soft tissue damage,marks, welts

so threats,shouting,rough handling are not abuse by your reckoning

this constant harping on "oh well we only have CBL one view point.well whats the issue here?is it a none too subtle attempt to undermine her account because some happen to not agree

all MN is anecdotal narrative told by a stranger to strangers. the fact is we have no corroborating evidence of anything. does not stop anyone posting or offering opinion

test

yay! tis working again!!

sadly I think some of the posts on here show what is wrong with things today. worrying more about the attacker than the victim.

I'm not a smacker. But I didn't know it was illegal to smack your own children.

Although I think it is illegal to kick a dog.

Good for you for stepping in! Did anyone else at the bus stop or on the bus say anything?

God what a horrible thread .

To the OP -you did what you thought was right. Would I have done the same? don't know. Maybe. I would have intervened in some way though because what you describe sounds horrible and out of control. For the sake of both the child and the mother I would have tried to stop it.

We are a society - we should not constantly look at our feet and just shuffle off for fear of reprisal or judement. We have a collective responsbility. Some areas are grey of course. But what the OP described does not sound grey to me.

As others have said, were it a man beating a woman - we would have called the police.

Kerrymum, if you were abused as a child - did you never wish someone had stood up for you? that someone had shown they cared and thought it was wrong?

i think crazybuslady that you did the right thing and that it was very brave of you to do so.well done to you!

there are no excuses for that behaviour!if it was the 4 year old being violent,tormenting and swearing at her mother im sure theyd be uproar at how badly she was behaving.the mum did this and shes a grown up!'but maybe she was having a bad day'.

I don't think it is illegal to smack a child is it? I think they attempted to bring the law in. However, as long as parents know the difference between a tap and beating the hell out of a child I cannot see the problem with a smack now and again. I agree that woman at the bus stop sounded like she took it too far. I was smacked on the legs now and again as a child and I have grown up to be a responsible law abiding citizen. I occasionally smack my DS on the bum, but clothing usually dulls that and it doesn't hurt him, I don't know why I do it really. As he gets older (he is 8.3) I think it is more important to not smack them as it is only teaching them violence.

Sorry to be a legal geek but......In order to cause actual bodily harm to a person you need not touch them. Shouting at someone can in certain curcumstances be actual bodily harm for the actus reus of s.47 offence against the person. And very interestingly, silence (silent phone calls made late at night to a person for example) can in some cases constitute actual bodily harm.

excessive force for chastisement is banned in scotland.what CBL describes would have merited police involvement

From 27 October 2003, it will be illegal to punish children by:

Shaking
Hitting on the head
Using a belt, cane, slipper, wooden spoon or other implement
The new legislation is not confined to banning the specific types of behaviour mentioned above.
In addition, if a court were looking into the physical punishment which a child had received,
it would consider:

The child's age
What was done to the child, for what reason and what the circumstances were
The duration of the punishment and the frequency
How it affected the child (physically and mentally)
Other issues personal to the child, such as their gender and state of health
why has the new legislation been introduced?
Previously, the law allowed parents the right of 'reasonable chastisement' in disciplining their children. Parents were able to administer moderate physical punishment to their children without being liable for damages or a criminal conviction for assault. But the concept of 'reasonable chastisement', which dates back to Victorian times, is difficult to define in the 21st century. So to protect children from harsh physical punishment the law has been clarified and brought up to date.

how were the changes arrived at?
The new legislation was informed by the results of a detailed consultation exercise 1 followed up by additional research carried out with groups of ordinary parents from across Scotland. 2

Although there was not widespread support for smacking to be banned altogether, there was near total agreement for the more dangerous forms of physical punishment to be banned.

1 The Physical Punishment of Children in Scotland: A Consultation (Scottish Executive, 2000)
2 Disciplining Children: Research with Parents in Scotland (NFO System Three for Scottish Executive, 2002)

has smacking been banned altogether?
Smacking is not completely prohibited. Whether a physical punishment is legal or not will depend on the factors detailed previously under 'changes in the law'. However, smacking is not advisable as a method of disciplining children since it:

Not illegal to smack a child as long as it falls within the remit of a "legal reprimand".

The police would decide that taking into account the witness statements, which sound as though it was very much outside the bounds of a legal reprimand.

I think they should ban shouting as well as smacking.

interesting responses from some on here! A friend of mine who has 3 small girls (under 5) and PND has totally LOST it in terms of shouting at them, in their own home, and had the police called on them twice by the next door neighbour.

although it was embarrassing, my friend was in a strange way half glad that someone cared enough about her and her kids to take that action. Nothing was done by the police but both times they came out to see what the problem was.

IF the police had thought the OP was over-reacting, they wouldn't have shown up.

So if the police don't think she was over-reacting, why do some people on here think she was?

yes smacking in scotland not illegal,so down to interpreation severity/degree/duration injury sustained

OK, while we are on the subject then what do you think to this I would be interested in your views. My Borderline autistic DSD had a row with her father, she scratched his neck and arm, and attempted to kick him in the knackers. In an attempt to protect himself and the fact that he was very bloody angry he hit her on the arm. Her mother took photos and threatened us with solicitors etc. Was he supposed to let her carry on abusing him? She is 12 but a big girl, not fat, just tall etc, she could easily overpower me.

I dont think on their own a small smack/pat and pulling the child onto the bus would consitiute abusive behaviour but I think looking at this as a whole (repeated smacking and verbal abuse) this is a situation which is not healthy.

sim general jist is reasonable force not disproportionate. enough to prevent injury and diffuse situation

in case af adolescents there are specific breakaway and restraint guidelines.which is vilonce is a known risk should be acknowledged discussed and documented in care paln

Sorry Scottishmummy, I'm not a legal eagle. Not sure whether you mean it was ok for him to slap her or not?

frasersmummy on Wed 16-Jul-08 09:38:05

"I just think the way some people on here have reacted on here is ridiculous eg katie saying the child could have been dead before SS got there... dead?? dead??"

As I mentioned earlier, that is precisely what happened to a Mum near where I used to live. She was very stressed, the child was whingey, she lost it and shook her hard. The child was dead with a broken neck. She was about 4 or 5. They are not invulnerable at that age. And adults in a temper can be stronger than they think.

I still cannot find an answer to the question that has been put repeatedly on this thread:

what should you do if you saw an adult man thumping a woman? think that maybe he is stressed? offer him sweets? or risk being OTT by calling the police?

If she had smacked the child once I would agree calling the police was a complete overreaction. That doesn't mean I agree with smacking, but, as a one off then it doesn't mean bad parent! She hit the child repeatedly in anger.

My grandma has alzheimer's. SHe used to be aggressive, difficult and childish. Would it have been OK for my grandad or mum to repeatedly hit her in anger? If they had, what should have happened?

sim dont mean to be vague but depends.unable to give a definitive Yes/No. but statements,any evidence, account of incident, corroborating evidence, any injuries sustained by child, child previous behavioural pattern would all be looked at to decide outcome