To think extra lessons for top students isn’t fair?

[Beepboobeep]

My DD’s state primary school has a “top maths club” and “great writers club” for the top performing students in yr 5 and 6 held outside of school hours. There is no charge for this - so it’s free childcare and free tutoring. You have to be invited. This has been running since the second week of the school year and is restarting on the first day of this half term.

By contrast, my dyslexic DD is in a group for those needing more support in writing, also outside of school hours. But they only managed 2 sessions last year and it hasn’t started back up this year. She gets ad hoc in school support; where it happens she misses other lessons that aren’t then caught up on, putting her further behind in the those.

I appreciate these children deserve challenging, but surely that could be done in class with different work and the teacher’s out of hours time, if available, used to help those struggling?

Is this even allowed in a state primary?

Section 20 Children and Families Act 2014

20 (1)

"A child or young person has special educational needs if he or she has a learning difficulty or disability which calls for special educational provision to be made for him or her."

Being gifted, talented, more able etc. is not legally a special educational need.

YABU. Your issue is the lack of SEND support that your daughter is receiving. You don't seem to know how this particular after school group is being funded if it's on a voluntary basis it is entirely reasonable to determine the nature of the group.

Particular SEND support needs to be funded by the school. SEND pupils are most likely getting far more teacher time and support in lessons, whereas the more able are typically left to it. Also the plethora of needs emerging in classrooms across the country SEND support is spread extremely thin and there are usually children which much greater needs than dyslexia.

I’m trying to think what £500 per week on academic extra curricular must look like. It’s primary level so cheaper so £30 an hour? So 17 extra hours tuition a week? 3 per school day. Or even 10 at £50. How would she have the time for an extra hour after school? And she is still struggling at school? You are absolutely right to move her op, like another poster said her self esteem must be low. And she must be near burn out. I hope you have chosen an exceptionally nurturing but not focused on results school.

I had similar from my DDs secondary, she finished the work really quickly and was 'encouraged' to spend the rest of the time helping the person she had been put next to.(so DD could constantly help them). No problem with this when its occasional, but it had happened all the way through primary and now secondary. Even the teacher said she thought DD wasnt challenged and seemed distracted and bored. In the process of moving school where she should be challenged and hopefully wont rebel against it 🫣

2E children are normally autistic so that is incorrect.

"Twice-exceptional (2e) children are kids who are intellectually or academically gifted while also living with a neurodevelopmental or learning difference, such as autism spectrum disorder (ASD)"

Every child should be given the same amount/hours of support by the school, either during or after school. If that’s the case then it’s fair. If not then it’s unfair.

Actually, I disagree. High ability students or “gifted and talented” are some of the ones who have been lost in the continued cuts to our education system. Not pushed and sitting in classrooms plagued by poor behaviour. Like another poster said, it isn’t a race to the bottom. All children should be allowed to achieve their full potential.

But that's parental choice and the parents pay for that. Could other parents not pay for additional and suitable tuition at the other end? Or because parents pay for something does that mean their kid doesn't deserve it in school.

IME the make up of these groups at secondary are so arbitrary, particularly when you are determining what distinguishes highly competent from those in a stretching class. Of course, it is easy to classify exceptional students but they are rare and usually the ones in the local paper on GCSE results day! IME the progress of students at A level to outstanding universities for example, does not correlate, in any way, with those placed in 'stretching groups' at GCSE level or younger.

At 9/10 years old I would conclude this is mostly bollox and way too early to place students on a certain track!

No, the economy relies on the vast majority of people getting out of bed to deliver essential services. The actual academic elite don’t need extra maths at 10. They will get all the specialised maths tuition they need when they go to Oxford or Cambridge etc to study maths/science at 18.

I have worked in primary schools for the last 10 years and I assure you that the lower ability children get lots of support on a daily basis.

Interventions (small group work) are often done on a daily basis in maths, handwriting, phonics, reading, comprehension and any other areas that they need support with. These often take place early morning, during normal lesson time and afternoons. Sometimes the same children will be taken out of class multiple times a day.

When not in interventions, during normal class time, often a TA will work with the LA (lower ability) children and the teacher shares their time between the other 25 children or the teacher will focus on the LA children and the TA will assist the other 25.

More able children rarely get challenged, they almost never get to do small group work with a TA and sometimes get zero assistance from the class teacher after the initial input as they are capable of achieving the main learning objective of the lesson without any help. It is fantastic to learn that this after school club is being provided as an opportunity for the higher ability children in my opinion as they are usually overlooked.

The teacher is probably giving up their time unpaid, so yes it's fair.

I spend 90 minutes after school once a week to support A Level students. Unpaid.

Its brilliant what the school is doing.

Could you help your DD more at home if she is struggling? I have spent hours doing extra reading with my DD who was behind.

Why would you conclude that not being G&T (which again isn't going to be many pupils) equals must have behaviour problems?

Autism is a disability, so would fall under Section 20 of the Act. Being more able/gifted and talented is not legally a special educational need.

My very able DD wasn’t bored and didn’t have any additional classes.

They deserve just as much challenges and support as the ones who are struggling. Unfortunately too many get overlooked in favour of those who are struggling so it's good the school has this in place. It's equally important.

I have a child who struggles with reading and a child who excels. Both require additional help because my child who struggles becomes frustrated and stops trying and my child who excels can do the same for lack of a challenge. Literally every week I have a child who cries as soon as I get his tablet out and put seesaw on and a child who cries because there's not enough seesaw homework and it's all she wants to do. They are kids, treating as individuals is how it should be, kids should be praised and given confidence for the things they excel at. Do you want to cancel sports day because it priorities strong runners?

Delighted to hear it. One of the reasons we pay for our three to go to public school is that we know our neurotypical kids get stretched as well as ensuring our SEND children get support.

Of course one of the big issues around the VAT being imposed on private schools is that most of the private schools that are failing are the smaller schools who support SEND kids putting more pressure on the state system.

Rather than focusing on the afterschool clubs for higher achievers, who may or may not also have SEN, you should focus on SEN support for your DD.

If you aren’t getting anywhere with the SENCO, have you spoken to the HT? If so and you still have got anywhere, have you complained? They have a duty under the Children and Families Act 2014 to make their best endeavours to meet DD’s SEN and they must make reasonable adjustments as per the Equality Act 2010.

You say DD wouldn’t be eligible for an EHCP, but if she needs more support than is being provided, you should request an EHCNA. You can secure an EHCNA and then an EHCP even if the school could do more but won’t.

EHCPs are based on needs, not diagnosis, and you absolutely can get EHCPs for dyslexia alone. Just because the pp hasn’t seen it happen doesn’t/can’t mean it doesn’t/can’t.

Schools shouldn’t rely on afterschool clubs to deliver SEN support.

Case law shows, on its own, exceptional ability is not legally an SEN. Of course, some may also have SEN.

As others have said, this is not necessarily being funded by the school. Often clubs and interventions are run by teachers volunteering their time to give additional oppprtunities to students. For example I teach in secondary school and offer a booster group out of school hours for students targeting grades 7-9 in my subject. I am not paid to do this and not obliged to do it - I enjoy it and consider it to be worthwhile, and helpful to those children, who benefit from the opportunity to discuss topics in greater depth with students working at a similar level. I don't think it's "unfair" of me to offer my time in this way, given that I am not obliged to offer it at all.

A few of my colleagues choose to run groups targeting different students, or groups that are open to all - again that's entirely their choice. Others don't offer anything out of school hours, and that's also absolutely fair enough - they aren't obliged to volunteer their time in this way. Childcare issues, caring responsibilities etc make it impossible for some colleagues to offer this sort of thing .....

An entirely separate issue is the fact that you believe your child is not recieving sufficient provision in school. If that's the case, then of course that is an issue. There are practical and financial limits on what a school can provide, but certainly her needs should be properly assessed, and catered for accordingly.

But there is no entitlement to out of hours provision which is only possible because teachers are giving their time freely. If school is allocating funding to this provision, rhat's a bit different, and there is an argument to say it should be fairly available to all children.

I suggest you request a meeting with the SENCO to discuss your daughter's needs. But if I were you I would leave the club for able students out of the equation. It's just not relevant.

Why can't you provide more books then, why do you need ed-tech on a tablet?

But they don't all get to be the elite at 18. If you read my post none of my primary school class went to university. In fact out of 242 kids only one went at 18. I've met at least 10 who went subsequently...so clearly the system fails bright kids...as well as the ops child in this situation during the day.

Remember these kids are giving up their own time. They don't have to be there. But they want to be.

Re people getting out of bed, without people like Branson, Sugar, Mr Mark and Mr Spencer they would have nothing to get out of bed for. Small businesses and entrepreneurs become big businesses. Education (and look at Africa as proof) leads to economic growth

It's great that academically able children are being challenged. Otherwise they are coasting along in the classroom setting where inevitably those needing more support get more attention. All schools should offer this level of support.

I imagine it's aimed to compensate for the dc who's needs aren't being met during the regular lessons as they're out of step with their class.

You're seeing it as them getting "extra" but really their needs aren't being met as well in school time.

I agree support should be given at both ends of the scale though.

My dd's primary did this but only for maths, only boys were invited and it wasn't made common knowledge among parents. But the girls were very clearly given the message that they weren't good at maths. DD has flown with maths since we've shed the place.

Yanbu.
whilst i agree kids need to be stretched they should be doing this for all kids in class
or
doing a club kids can choose to do
or one parents pay for.

our school also selects kids and you dont even hear about it. Its a lot of crap as it makes kids good already even faster so unsurprisingly by y6 they do better than others on sats.
My girls are actually pretty good at maths but their confidence in it is low. As they calculate more slowly. But… actually have wound up in higher maths sets than most of the primary boys that school were convinced were so advanced. Because arithmetic isnt anywhere near as hard as gcse maths.

It never even switches around, neither of mine invited but i can 100% bet that the teacher/ta kids somehow are always invited. Both my girls completely underestimated.
Need to move the focus from speed. !