To think extra lessons for top students isn’t fair?

[Beepboobeep]

My DD’s state primary school has a “top maths club” and “great writers club” for the top performing students in yr 5 and 6 held outside of school hours. There is no charge for this - so it’s free childcare and free tutoring. You have to be invited. This has been running since the second week of the school year and is restarting on the first day of this half term.

By contrast, my dyslexic DD is in a group for those needing more support in writing, also outside of school hours. But they only managed 2 sessions last year and it hasn’t started back up this year. She gets ad hoc in school support; where it happens she misses other lessons that aren’t then caught up on, putting her further behind in the those.

I appreciate these children deserve challenging, but surely that could be done in class with different work and the teacher’s out of hours time, if available, used to help those struggling?

Is this even allowed in a state primary?

Teachers are giving up their own time this is extra time that is not depriving your child of anything. I’m sure the teachers get a lot of pleasure from doing this and build relationships with kids who they hope will achieve greater depth in their stats which will be a development point for the school, just as helping your child to reach the expected standard will be. There is probably some guilt that the most able children children are often not getting the support they would ideally get in school hours.

Yes, because these kids may be struggling in other ways. Most kids who are gifted are twice exceptional, meaning that they have a learning disability too, or may have autism or ADHD

Then fight for that! Stop trying to take something away from high achieving kids.

Why is it either or?? Why can't it be both?

Take it up with the school that you think your daughter who is struggling is not getting enough support.

The only reason you'd have to complain about these extra classes the "top kids" are getting is if the school turned round and said "sorry we can't help your daughter because the money is being spent on the after school classes." Which is highly unlikely, you've just come to that conclusion yourself.

Percentage with EHCP or previous equivalent has more than doubled though.

Thats not how extra curricular clubs work though. Usually a teacher offers to run something, the kids are interested enough to justify it, and the teacher runs it. Voluntarily.
In the same way that a football club isn't the thing preventing a dyslexia support club, a maths and writing club isn't either! Kids that struggle with coordination and sports aren't being neglected because the school netball team is training twice a week, and if you're really concerned, there's lots you can be working on with your daughter at home, or you can look at private tutoring (rather than expecting underpaid teachers go give up more of their free time!)

Fwiw, chances are, other kids who are struggling don't want to attend a writing club, and therefore there's also not the demand for it! It's also likely to be harder and less enjoyable for the teachers running it voluntarily!

If the 'smarter' kids are getting full marks all the time then they are not getting what they need in class. The struggling kids always get the teachers attention in school. The high performers are largely left to it. So good for the school providing them some extra challenge.

Plus after school clubs are meant to be fun. And teachers generally volunteer their time, it's not normally extra resource available to be spent elsewhere. Why would they volunteer to teach kids who wouldn't be there for the enjoyment?! That's their day job they get paid for

And yet research on this subject overwhelming shows that there is no reliable way to identify 'talent' at a young. Indeed, research done on the the Gifted programme referenced on this thread by one poster, found that advantaged pupils were more likely to be considered gifted. The outcome of which maybe be teens that go off the rails, as they are emotionally unable to cope with the reality of their 'gift' being based upon an artificial and unreliable assessment.

If we are discussing 'high achievers' that won't be the case.

op, this is what you don’t realise. Being gifted or most able can become a curse. Kids can either turn in on themselves or act out because they feel ignored at school. I know it clearly feels to you like the school is giving out more cake to kids who already have lots of cake, and from the way you describe these parents, a lot of them are privileged. But supporting the very able kids is not WRONG. What sounds wrong is how they have not arranged the support for your child. Try to separate the issues because you must be making yourself more miserable and taking something from another group of kids that needs support is not going to help you find allies.

How so? I was a high achiever at school, both primary and secondary. I was a scholarship student and got top grades.

But I had ADHD. I was extremely disruptive at times, particularly if I was bored or not challenged. It absolutely can be the case that someone could be a straight A student and struggle in other ways with behaviour.

Both of my children achieved 'Greater Depth' in SATs and the school didn't provide any additional lessons for these children. Why does a child who is working at the level need lessons on how to work at that level? SATs are pointless too. All they have done is taken away resources from subjects that 'would' benefit a child's development and ensured the erosion of a holistic approach to education, which is far more beneficial to society and the economy!

It’s often the quiet ones in the middle who get ignored. Too well behaved to get loads of points on ClassCharts & not bright enough to get loads of points for amazing work.

I teach and pretty much all my effort goes into making sure all students can access the work. So I imagine some bright students get bored.

I think that as a nation if we want to compete to be the best then we need to encourage the most talented students to excel academically. It’s not fair to hold them back just so that others don’t feel left out.

I think the issue might be that you are in an 11+ area. Their summer schedule sounds depressing to be honest - 10 year old kids stuck in 11+ ‘camp’ instead of enjoying their summer & extra tuition after school. It sounds very intense.

Try not to get too caught up in it all. There’s more to children than whether they are academically gifted.

I didn't say it wasn't, I was referring to 'high achievers' not 'gifted' pupils who are 'twice exceptional'. If you have read my posts you would see that I am disputing the terminology and how much of the research shows that it is not possible to determine this at 9/10.

But the research overwhelming shows that at primary age rigid 'talent' labels are very unreliable. Research on the Gifted programme demonstrated that advantaged children were more likely to be labelled 'gifted'. It is therefore questionable whether we should be worried about an absence of attention or resources for a group of children that are already mostly advantaged. But of course, this doesn't apply to those that aren't.

Agreed. Unfortunately the teacher in our DC's primary spends so long managing the needs of the children in the class who either won't behave or can't understand the work, that the ones who manage fine without much help but would need a push to reach their full potential get diddly squat. DC seems to be going backwards, attainment-wise.

Kids capable of getting A* need to be taught and stretched so they do.
The fad of the last 10nyears of having the high achievers teach the less-able is a lousy idea for both and doesn't stretch them at all
If the parents have been paying for out of school teaching and support it suggests it's needed and the kids are benefiting
Maybe focus on getting the best for your child and stop worrying about the others?

This would have helped my son, he was so frustrated at primary school and was miserable. He also struggled with friendships and needed therapy to help him work through why he was so down all the time.

So much happier at secondary when he was finally given the challenges he so desperately needed (and knew he needed).

I actually teared up reading the OP as I'm so happy for those kids and sad for mine when he was that age.

Secondary teacher here. We have intervention for those students who have been identified as struggling. Teachers who are already exhausted from teaching a full day, rush to intervention- no time for the toilet so best not to drink too much, and then teach after school. The issue I have found, is that students do not turn up! I am ringing parents who give every excuse under the sun. It is so disheartening because it is free tuition and we really want students to pass English, Maths and Science. They are not on track to pass.

My advice to you OP would be do a little bit with your child every evening. Just 10 mins of Maths and English can make a huge difference.

Ask her teachers for a progress report, set up a meeting, have a look at her books. In my experience it is optimum when parents and teachers work together. Some schools like mine, parents honestly dont need to bother with tuition, our school is an exam factory. They will push every ability but if your school is not like that...you will have to put in the extra work...either you yourself, other family members or a tutor.

Well I have two of them... one with an IQ of 135 but cant spell... on the other hand Math he excels at

Why does it matter if rigid talent labels are unreliable? The extra lessons aren't for the potential lazy 17 year olds, or mediocre 30 year olds they might become.

I have exactly the same, one high achiever and one with learning disabilities. The amount of support my child with SEN got was massive compared to my high achiever, who was quite often bored and not challenged enough.

High achiever did end up on SEN support as was diagnosed as dyslexic 2 months before GCSEs. Assessor said it would have been picked up straight away in a grammar school. But due to lack of challenge, my child went under the radar in both primary and secondary school. He loved sixth form and currently at uni. He probably would have had a better time at schoool wifh such challenge clubs.

I have already explained- it perpetuates inequality of opportunities!

So who exactly benefits from bright kids learning less?

Do you feel the same about sporting and musical extracurriculars? As they're usually based on aptitude too. It never even occurred to me at school that I was owed a place on an extracurricular to reach my potential. Those classes were for people who excelled in those subjects, whether it was Maths Challenge, Orchestra, or the netball team. The school's obligation is to educate your child for a set number of hours per year, in set curriculum subjects. Beyond that...

This is why there are so many sen kids in private schools. The parents realise it’s pretty shit being a sen child in state schools and sacrifice everything for them to go to a private school. Might not be right or fair but it is the cold hard reality of life.