To not have sex unless I actually want to

[OverOverOverAgain]

Me and my husband been having issues for last couple of years. We have young kids amd full time jobs and we have grown apart. We don't have much in common

Tonight we had a "chat" after a month or so of barely saying two words to each other

I've slept in spare room for months. My choice. I find it hard to sleep next to a man I barely talk to for days.

He said our lack of sex life was a driver in our issues. I said its a symptom of the issues, not the cause. He disagreed and said we should schedule sex and commit to regular sex and the closeness and love will follow

I said "but I don't want to have sex when its so frosty between us" and he said "so?". And I said "i have to want it"

He replied "well I'd rather you want to have sex but even if you dont - I'd rather you just did it anyway - because I need ti have sex, and our relationship needs it. You refusing is causing huge distance" and so on.

Im just sat here by myself at 11pm on a Sunday unable to sleep mulling it over in my head

But it feels like a really shitty thing to have said. But maybe there is a grain of truth to it. I need some advice!

I can see both points of view.

It's a fact that sex can lead to feelings. And I think most people would be very unhappy if their spouse stopped having sex with them and sleeping in the spare room. It's reasonable to want to have sex in your marriage.

But it's also reasonable to want emotional intimacy in marriage too, and common for women not to enjoy sex without that.

The status quo is not working for either of you. Assuming you both have the same ultimate goal to fix your relationship there's no point in fighting over who is "right" and "wrong" in this. Both of you have expressed what you need to be happy in the relationship. So I think you need to come up with a plan and specific things you can do to achieve this.

For example, yours might be

• go on a weekly date once a week for a month. Ask him to plan at least half of them. Without the expectation of sex at the end.
• eat as a family for x meals a week to encourage more chatting and having fun together
• play a board game / do something together as a couple after the kids are asleep once a week for a month
• cook dinner together at the weekend
• have a day/weekend away together before Christmas
• restricted phone usage for you both in the evening to focus on doing stuff together instead.

You could think about how you could increase physical touch in day to day life during this time and see if after a month or so you're starting to feel differently.

• kiss goodbye in the morning before work
• sleep in the same bed some of the time
• hold hands whilst watching TV
• back massages
• hand job etc

I'd also try to find things to openly praise about him. If my DH didn't want to sleep with me I'd be feeling so rejected and worthless.

Just ideas. I'm sure you can both come up with your own that could work for you both.

Dear lord. Mumsnetters, this is what it should be like:
Husband sees wife is exhausted.
Husband actively seeks out tasks he can do so that she doesn’t have to. Husband doesn’t then present them as deserving of a reward, but as a gift with no strings attached.
Wife falls asleep as soon as head hits pillow.
Husband kisses her gently on the cheek and goes to sleep too.

There is then the possibility that you get to a place where she is no longer fucking exhausted and because he has been loving towards her, she feels loving towards him and they have a shag which is fun and also loving. Marriage continues happily.

After your initial post @OverOverOverAgain, I thought perhaps marriage counselling might work for you. Having read your follow-up posts, I no longer think so.

• “Even a fucking handjob” makes it clear that he only cares about him “reconnecting” (i.e. orgasming), not you.
• Date nights and other effort have never happened — in other words, he only cares about his own needs, not yours.
• Housework and “remembering things” is only “small stuff” to him because he thinks of you as a wife appliance and cares more about orgasms than about raising your children in a clean environment.

I’m sorry to say that I think your marriage is already over. My sex drive exceeds that of my wife but I would hate for her to feel pressured into any sex she didn’t want, let alone unidirectionally “servicing” me.

@CrazyMidget nice one. The lyrics of "Express Yourself" are very approprite to this thread.

https://genius.com/Madonna-express-yourself-lyrics

Perhaps if tried "dating" you again you'd want to but I doubt he's interested. He doesn't want to work at improving the marriage he just wants sex.

Like what do you both expect? Relationships are give and take. Tell him I need x y and z to even want you, if he's unwilling, call it a day so you can both find what you want.

This looks grim. Do either of you want to fix this marriage, it seems not? If not then plan your exit. This sounds and feels deeply toxic.

You haven’t really said why you no longer fancy him, is it:

1 - Purely his lack of domestic input and how he is towards you?

2 - Has he let himself go?

3 - Are you sexually incompatible as a couple?

The whole situation is spiralling for both of you, and it’s easy for most to say leave him - but I guess you wanted a possible solution rather than for people to tell you to just end it.

You deserve a happy fulfilled life - you just need to work out if that can be achieved with your present partner or without.

I believe numbers 1 and 2 can be easily fixed - number 3, not so easily.

You are not being unreasonable.
No man should want to have sex with a woman who isn't enthusiastic!
He knows why you're not attracted to him right now, but he doesn't care. He's not going to change, he just wants to push you into having sex with him. Then he gets what he wants and you get nothing that you want.
Have you tried couples therapy at all?

Of course you don’t want to have sex with a whine-y toddler, you want to have sex with a man.

A man remembers to buy dishwasher tablets, does housework, cooks dinner, remembers what is needed from the supermarket and purchases it. A whine-y toddler doesn’t want to pick up after themselves, or wash or clean up or contribute to the running of the household; so if your H is behaving like that, how can he expect you to find him attractive?

And as for having sex with you when he knows you don’t want it, that’s rape, pure and simple.

Your H has just told you he’d rather rape you than contribute to the running of the household and the relationship like a grown up, no wonder you feel repulsed by him.

I think you underestimate the importance of number 1, and how hard it is to fix once the respect has gone.

I forced myself to have sex when I didn't want to at the end of my marriage and it made me feel absolutely awful. (My ex didn't know this is what I was doing as I didn't tell him so it wasn't coerced or anything). I'd go upstairs and cry. Which went on for longer than it should before I finally realised that this couldn't carry on!

You know there's no real way forward with your marriage, OP. It really is divorce or divorce.

I think this is the big one, because it can't really be addressed unless the person is willing to change the way they are showing up in the relationship and around the home, without attaching expectation of immediate change in desire from the other person.

My own experience is that it can make it worse. It made me feel like he could have been trying all along and just didn't bother until he thought there was something in it for him. He wasn't doing it out of care for my wellbeing or because he thought that he should because that's what a partnership is.

Sometimes it's too late for someone to start showing that they care. Especially if they've also given you the ick by outright stating that you should have sex with them when you don't want to. What level of care does that show? He expects you to endure physical pain and the emotional aftermath of feeling like an object.

How do you fix your first point? He doesn't help round the house and frames her attempts at getting him to help as 'nagging.' Then is surprised when she's too knackered to want sex in a grubby house. I hate cleaning but I'm a single parent and I have to do it alone and it's another pretty hardcore job on top of working full-time. I wouldn't be inclined to give a lazy partner who didn't help me with it a handjob either.

And leopards - or in this case lazers - don't change their spots. How do you suggest she gets him to step up? Or are you saying she should just stop caring about the house being a tip?

You deserve better. Leave him

I mean I think you urgently need marriage counseling as he has some real issues, but it sounds like the marriage is close to over.
Keep your distance… he sounds like he doesn’t understand the meaning of consent!!

"He said our lack of sex life was a driver in our issues. I said its a symptom of the issues, not the cause. He disagreed and said we should schedule sex and commit to regular sex and the closeness and love will follow"

It sounds like you are both withdrawing from the relationship for different reasons. His is lack of sex. What is missing in the relationship for you?

Not for one minute saying you should have sex if you don't want to. But this sounds like a catch 22 situation. His lack of intimate sexual contact is making him unhapy. Because he is then becoming a grump this makes you want sex even less.

This is not an uncommon situation and there is no middle ground. As has been said by somebody else - Men usually need physical contant and women need emotional contact. Neither of you are able to give what the other person wants.

This is a death spiral for any relationship.

Be mindful that you have asked this question a womens messageboard which is going to massively skew the responses. If you want to better understand things from his viewpoint consider also asking on a mens forum.

"I'd rather you want to have sex, but if you don't I'm prepared to rape you through coercion."

OP, your marriage is long dead at this point. You don't even like each other, let alone love each other. You're not going to want sex with a man you dislike, and he isn't going to want to be lovey-dovey and warm with a woman he dislikes. You're not going to be able to fix this and you need to face up to that and split.

This is sexual coersion e.i. rape. This is what he is proposing. In stead of actually working on your relationship to the point you WANT to have sex with him he wants you to allow him to rape you. I'm sorry but the only way out of this is leaving. It will not get any better.

When a couples' sex life stumbles and stutters in stressful and busy years, I am usually an advocate of putting the effort into regular sex – even you don't feel like it.

Not in this case, however – this isn't simply 'busy life is getting in the way', it sounds like you don't love him anymore and you are simply staying together because breaking up feels too difficult to navigate. Fair enough, but what end do you expect if that's true? To both bumble along and waste the next 10-15 years together unhappily?

If that's not the case and you do want to rekindle, I would expect him to come to the table with ways other than sex to do that – date nights, other intimacies, proper time without the kids etc. He either needs more time to let the conversation sink in or it really is time to call it a day.

It's really not a catch-22. Have you read her other posts? What is missing from the relationship is everything. He doesn't help round the house - to the point where he sneers at her for suggesting he should buy dishwasher tablets - and doesn't provide any intimacy in terms of date nights or those sorts of opportunities for connection. He just wants her to shag him. He doesn't care about intimacy, he just wants sex. Her forcing herself to have sex with him means he gets what he wants - a housekeeper who pays the bills and also has sex with him. What does she get? All relationships are transactional to a degree and in this one, the issue is that the OP's husband assumes he can just keep taking while giving nothing in return.

I would write something out and send it to him which says you will not have sex with him as a man making a women have sex when she doesnt want to would be rape,.tell him again to arrange a weekly date night and that if within.6 weeks this hasnt been.done you both need to split up....i would also find an article on sexual control and coersion in relstionships and send that to.him too and tell.him you are not a prostitute

And I'd rather not come out the other side exhausted, broke and resentful because I've spent 15 years paying for everything, looking after everyone, and spending my precious evenings giving 5 min handjobs to keep him happy.

Yes and this is the crux of it.

Have you told him that if he helped you out and paid attention to the “small stuff” like tidying up then there’s a far greater chance that you’d have the energy and the desire for sex.

What has killed your desire is his lack of support and leaving everything to you - that’s unattractive.

He needs to understand this if there’s any chance of saving the relationship.