To think excluding SEN child

[bronteemily]

From birthday parties is often reasonable?
Allow me to explain further.

I work in reception year in a primary school and there have been 2 party invites given out this October. One of the SEN children has not received an invitation to either and their mum has been in to complain. We cannot dictate that any child must be invited to something outside of school anyway however without revealing this to the parent, I completely understand why this child hasn’t been invited.

From the children’s perspective, SEN child is very disruptive. Climbs on tables and shouts swear words in the middle of learning time. They kick and hit out at anyone in reach when being removed from the classroom. They scream as loud as possible throughout the day and actively seek out to upset others by ruining their pictures, things they’ve built or just intentionally hitting unprovoked.

Whilst we are working on managing these behaviours and figuring out what strategies will work, the other children are experiencing all of this whilst being only a few months into their first ever school year.

AIBU to think that on their special party day they shouldn’t have to include a child they’re scared of and that unsettles them daily at school? Inclusion is forced upon them at school but they deserve a birthday without having to compromise. They are only 4.

I think you need a lot more training to be honest. You describe SEN behaviours as a choice.

Other than that I can’t comment, my profoundly autistic child couldn’t think of much worse than attending a party.

We never did a whole class party. It would have been too overwhelming for my kids anyway, but I would not have invited a disruptive child. It’s horrible but it’s not fair to the birthday child or the others attending.

Yanbu. There was a little boy in dd's primary school class who was very difficult to manage. He would frequently hurt other children or do things which put himself at risk, and other parents quite naturally felt that they were not equipped to deal with it. It didn't help that I think his mum, who was probably desperate for respite, typically didn't stay so other parents would be left to manage the behaviour.

However, my rule for dd was that it was fine to exclude people that she didn't like, but never just one or two, because that would be really hurtful. I do think it's wrong to invite the whole class bar one child.

My son's primary school had a special unit attached and in his class he had a child with downs syndrome, a child in a wheelchair and a couple of kids with autism (requiring 1:1 carers). We did all class parties a few times and included everyone. I always found the parents of any children with additional needs handled those needs perfectly well. Actually the hardest thing from a party point of view was the catering as we had dairy allergies, egg allergy, halal and kosher to accommodate! And we had to ditch a bowling party as there was no wheelchair access to the lanes (which is outrageous and probably needs it own thread).

DS had two boys with significant SEN needs in his class at primary.

When kids had a full class party, one was well looked after by his Mum but the other was unmanageable and even when Mum was there she was known for not intervening.

I remember three particular parties - one where I ended up managing behaviour because none of the other parents did and half the kids were getting upset (and harm), one when I'd refused to go due to previous above mentioned party and DH went instead and he ended up telling the kids to get down off the tables at one point and a third party when this particular kid was about to throw a chair, and me and another parent stopped him, it even though Mum was stood right next to us at the time. She was too busy drinking her glass of wine.

My point here being, that parents are not trained to deal with SEN kids. If the parent of the SEN kid isn't prepared to manage their own child's behaviour then that's ultimately a parenting problem. I know my limitations.

I don't ever regard myself as excluding the kid. I was unable to make suitable reasonable adjustments.

More than that it was the parents attitude that I had issues with and it was their problem to fix not mine to enable. They did not want to accept their child was SEN and just said he'd grow out of it and it was just because he was one of the youngest in the class.

These parties were always too much for this kid. He couldn't cope with them. They couldn't be arsed with dealing with him. There was one particular occasion where he said to me and another parent that he could do whatever he liked because his Mum never told him off. He knew this age 7.

In the end DS never had a full class party because of this child. We just had a small group of friends instead. I also refused permission for DS to either have or go on a play date with this particular kid. There were too many other parents who had done so and then ended up with massive issues. It wasn't safe or suitable as an environment for this kid or mine.

No one could reasonably adjust to manage the situation because the parents didn't want to deal with it or admit their child's behaviour was unacceptable. If they had been involved and trying I may well have taken a different attitude. I was never willing to take responsibility for the violence myself. I had to go to school on numerous occasions about safeguarding from this child and knew it was happening to other children too. Why on earth would I want to be 'inclusive' of them? A small number of the other children would actively self exclude if they knew this kid was going to a party. I know because we stopped DS from going to one or two parties because we knew how it would go. We weren't alone. It was the Little Johnny Show and we didn't want our kids to have supporting roles or become casualties of him.

The other kid in DS class with significant SEN needs was lovely. The parents were lovely. He sometimes did go boom. But because it was dealt with and supported properly without denial and abdication of responsibility by parents, we never had issues. Indeed DS invited him to his small parties and is still in touch with him regularly even though they are now at different schools. The difference was enormous.

It is rarely merely a SEN issue. There's SEN issues and involved parents who will start, help, intervene and manage a situation at a party if it arises. And there's SEN issues and parents who do fuck all but drop and run as quickly as possible or worse stand there and watch and then wonder why their child isnt being invited to the next party. Parents with SEN kids who genuinely can't cope in these situations, don't want to put their child in that situation because it's not good for their child. Or they know the limitations and have an active plan to cope and minimise issues for the well-being of their own child.

This child in DSs class was ALWAYS invited at nursery and in reception. Over the years the other parents get wise to the dynamics of kid AND parents. The kids themselves also get wise to it through experience. They wanted their party to be good without the drama and someone else taking over.

Running to the school and telling on other parents is hilarious in this context. Why aren't you managing and parenting my child's social life outside school as well as parenting my child in school?!

Parents should always have the right to say no, because in their heads they are writing a risk assessment about the situation and saying no this doesn't work and we don't have the skills to manage it not the ability to make reasonable adjustments. It's not exclusion. Its safeguarding all the other kids. Which frankly often isn't happening in schools when it should and this is creating unreasonable expectations outside schools for other parents too.

You say it yourself here though.

SEN behaviour isn't a choice. But parents can manage situations that arise to a certain extent because they have experience. You note you are fully aware of situations that you know your own child can't cope with and act accordingly.

It's not right to forcibly try and include a SEN child who can't cope in a situation where no adult has the required experience to deal with the situation because it's not in the best interests of your child to be included. You are recognising a reasonable adjustment isn't possible for this particular situation. Thats responsible.

The problem is parents who are making poor parenting decisions because they don't want to recognise the limitations and the level of intervention they need to provide in these situations. Other parents simply don't have the ability to manage these situations and not only is it unfair to put other parents in this situation it's arguably harmful physically or emotionally for the SEN kid themselves to be put in this situation by their own parents.

Schools are a completely different environment.

The SEN schools local to me are primarily for children with intellectual disabilities. I think there is one that caters for SEN children wiithout ID in the closest city, but the majority of SEN children without ID have nowhere else to go but mainstream.

In those circumstances I can understand why. However I have noticed sen children who aren't disruptive at all being excluded from party invites and I cannot understand that at all. My kids know they have to include everyone if they want to invite most of the class/kids of a certain gender.

If you work at the school as opposed to being one of the parents involved then you shouldn't be getting involved and the parents shouldn't be involving school!

If it's a whole class reception party surely all the parents attend anyway and can manage their own child. Only tricky if parents don't actually do this and it disrupts the party.

It is a long process getting appropriate provision for SEN kids and unfortunately often involves schools having to first prove they can't meet needs which is unfair for everyone.

Op, you say it's 'often' reasonable to exclude sen children but then go on to cite just one example - which I'd agree is pretty extreme. In fact, my own autistic child would find that behaviour incredibly unsettling herself. Quite often though, even non disruptive sen children are excluded from parties. They're also more likely to be bullied as a result of their differences.

I am ND as are our children and I would make an effort to involve all kids in class parties. But I regret it now. I think its sends a message to our children that we consider the feelings of strangers more important then their own and they learn to just put up with poor behaviour from others because society expects them to. My best friend would come help me at parties and she would look after the ND kids who had not wanted to join in with the group activity.

I had my uha moment when one girl of about 8/9, who was not close friends with my daughter, but I had invited her so she would not feel left out, had refused to come in the house for the group activity and was insisting on staying on the bouncy castle. I was trying to balance watching her with prepping the lunch which was meant to be ready when the group activity was over. So I kept going out to see her and saying are you OK X. Then on the next occasion I looked out the window and she was lying upside down with her head hanging off like she had broken her neck. I was screaming at her as I rushed outside and there was no response, then when I got close she jumped up laughing saying "ha ha I tricked you into thinking I was dead." She knew I was worried about her so deliberately pranked me.

The boys parties where even worse with me turning my back and finding a six year old on the ROOF of the playcentre so about 20 feet in the air. His dad was there at the time and was non fussed said he did it all the time at home, but I made him come down and my nerves were shot worrying he would do it again.

It's not about not inviting SEN kids or inviting SEN kids ... its about only inviting kids our kids want there to celebrate their birthday with them as these kids tended to want to join in with the group activities and were not off doing their own thing.

My SEN son (complex needs) isn't invited to parties. It would be a nightmare just keeping him away from the party food! He is completely miles away from behaving like an NT child. Everywhere we go with him we are one step behind. If I had had an invite whilst he was in MS reception I would have declined or had explained to parent what my child was like and if it was still a good idea (he was moved to specialist and it wasn't our fault he ended up in mainstream).

It is a bit different with a child that is higher functioning, but they struggle with impulsivity, regulation and sensory processing. You'd really be reliant on the parents heavily supervising, which doesn't always happen. It would take a sensitive conversation asking parents to do this so the child is included, which I think people really struggle with.

No it isn't the schools job to monitor invites! Nothing to do with them. It is awful being the SEN parent though. People who were friendly with me at the school gates suddenly avoided eye contact once I became the SEN mum at the school. My child was literally the most disabled child there. My child was disruptive, but not aggressive, he was just in the wrong school. Lord knows what people were gossiping about me. It really was horrible. There isn't enough support for the SEN parents and the emotional toll. This mum is probably still processing everything with her child's diagnosis and anger is a part of it - it takes time.

I would not invite a child who is known to disrupt and make other children upset to my child's special day. And as a teacher, I would not get involved in after school activities.

Well if it is that easy, wave your magic wand. My child has severe intellectual disabilities and a diagnosis list as long as your arm, but he was still in reception of a mainstream school. This was AFTER the EHCP process. A tribunal got him into his SS. Even the LA agreed he wasn't right for mainstream but still sent him.

I never wanted him in a mainstream. It isn't about parents being in denial, it's about resources.

My take on this is that my children don't have to invite anyone they don't want to invite, and their reason doesn't necessarily have to be "good enough" - however, I will then make subsequent decisions on how the party's going to go. E.g. my daughters have both previously said they don't want a couple of the rowdier boys, so I've said ok we'll have a girls-only party.

I wouldn't have a problem excluding just one if the reason was right, though. And the ages are relevant too - little kids fall out and make up quickly, but if say my 9yo had been (heaven forbid) bullied for years by one person, there had been violence, the parents had been told but couldn't give a shit etc, I would not feel guilty about excluding them at all.

Yep.

My son is complex but doesn't have autism and/or a learning disability so very few SEND schools would be available for him. Thankfully, it's been fine so far but he does start high school next September which makes me nervous.

It's wild that the mother has complained. I wouldn't sacrifice my child's safety and enjoyment of their birthday on the altar of inclusion

Are you a teacher @bronteemily ?

I have to say I agree with you and I'm the parent of 2 diagnosed SEN children and a toddler.
My eldest is Autistic and wayyyy past party invites anyway but was invited to many when younger and my middle has ADHD and still gets invited to parties, and my toddler gets party invites too, simply put none of them are disruptive, screaming, swearing, shouting and causing harm to anyone. The worst you'll get out of my middle child is him not sitting down for longer than 20 minutes but he will sit and eat happily and sing happy birthday to the birthday child, likewise the worst you'd of gotten off my autistic child is silence throughout the birthday song.

I've never conformed to the 'all or half' class invites, il invite the whole class but I will leave out children who have been nasty to mine, whether that be 5 children or 1 child. Im not paying for someone to be there at the party if they cause upset to my children. SEN needs don't come into it for me, il invite the SEN children but if the child who has been nasty or harms my children has SEN then I can imagine it may look like rejection, it isn't, if you are a parent who's child doesn't get invited to parties, may I kindly suggest you look at the behaviour as to why, are they overly disruptive? Are they lashing out and hitting other children? Etc if they are then I believe you'll have your answer.
Being non verbal/ having texture preferences/dietary requirements etc are very rarely the reason why.

I remember being terrified of some children with behavioural problems when I was that age. It's not fair to expect children of that age to invite someone they're afraid of. The SEN child's needs aren't the responsibility of young children who deserve protection too.

Same.

I'm more shocked at what the other children have to witness everyday when they're trying to learn.

Awful environment that they cannot possibly feel safe in.

Honestly @bronteemily I think you are being a bit of an arsehole to discuss this giving details of what is a really sad and horrible situation this family with a disabled child is facing. Surely you just explain gently that you can’t control who is invited to what outside school but will do your best to protect the child from any gloating or teasing. They’re walking a hard enough path without you happily discussing their situation on line and how much you feel the exclusion of this disabled child is justified.

Depends, if it's a whole class party with just one or two children not invited due to SEN that is mean.
If the parties are something like soft play for maximum eight children and birthday child has chosen eight friends from a class of thirty that's completely fair enough.