PIP isn't fit for purpose

[Ljcrow]

I made this comment on another thread and thought I'd start a separate thread purely on this topic. This is all from my own personal experience rather than from reading/hearing anything, I'm only going off what I see day to day.
The people I know who claim PIP do not need it financially. One works full time and earns more than me (and I'm not at imminent risk of homelessness or starvation) and the young people I know literally tell me things like their PIP's come in so they're off to get a new tattoo, which they then do. They appear to have much more disposable income than me.
These are all people who can function in society by the way and as far as I can see, all PIP does is give them extra spending money, which I'm sure we'd all like.

I'm aware this won't be the case for everyone who recieves PIP but it is for the people I come into regular contact with. Which is why it needs reloooking at so it only goes to those who actually need the money for a specific purpose related to their disability.

We're not in a position as a society where we can afford to give people money who do not actually need it.
Things like this should be means tested, both in terms of whether people have enough income to live a decent life without additional benefits and in terms of what the money is actually going to be used for.
PIP is not fit for purpose and needs scrapping or totally changing.

@Ljcrow mumsnet is a place where if you challange the system, you hate disabled people.

Based on what I learn in my job I completely agree with you. It isnt about saving “my tax dollars” I’d rather people who genuinely need it get more.

Acknowledging that too many people exploit PIP isn’t the same as bashing people who need it.

means-testing is a very expensive and inefficient way of allotting help to those who need it. Sometimes the costs of assessing income and policing its fraud are more than just dishing out the benefit. This debate has been ongoing for decades.

The answer is I think to dole out the benefits but recoup excess via the tax system, as is done with state pensions.

Isn't that what Kemi was trying to do? Pay your rent and bills with supermarket vouchers 🤣

So many people clever enough to magic evidence of medical conditions out of thin air for a PIP claim but not clever enough to realise they are committing fraud and should not be advertising that fact. Amazing.

On a practical note I’d think it’d cost more to process if you toughen up the process and the endless appeals to deal with than it would save

Another benefits bashing thread....havent seen one of them in a while 🙄

I don't agree PIP should be means tested.
I claim PIP and work, having PIP enabled me to make payments on an automatic car to get to work, due to arthritis I struggle to drive a manual. Working means I can continue to pay tax and to use my valuable skills within the nhs. Once paid off, I will start saving it to eventually convert our garage into a downstairs bedroom and shower room, for when I can no longer go up the stairs.

I an very happy to justify to DWP how it is being spent, and how that directly relates to my disability, if they want to know

I do think the majority of people are using it with same concept to me - I work with disabled children, and I know lots of the families use it to pay for extra therapy, specialist equipment not covered by nhs, carers etc.

There will always be those who don't use it as intended, but the cost of checking this would far exceed any money gained.

Yes it does occasionally happen but not to the point where people think it happens.
Its actually DLA that has a higher fraud rate than PIP as theres no assessments and sometimes claims get through with zero evidence. But yes let's just pick on pip claimants and not the actual issue... Make a post about dla fraud and we would be here all day as that is actually a serious issue.

Yabu

PIP is not supposed to be means-tested, it is not supposed to be going only to poor people.

It is supposed to be compensating for the additional costs of disability. If two colleagues are both earning £60,000 working the same job, with the same skills and talents and dedication as each other, and one is disabled and the other isn't. Without PIP the non-disabled colleague has a reasonably comfortable life and can pay their accommodation and food costs and has disposable income for holidays and nights out and fun, and the colleague who is disabled has to spend all of their income just surviving and is much worse off than their colleague solely because of their disability. Do you think disabled people shouldn't be allowed to enjoy the rewards of their hard work and talent as much as able bodied people? Perhaps you think their disability is their own problem and the rest of us shouldn't give a shit?

PIP is supposed to be in addition to other benefits or salary income assessed on the basis of how much extra it's going to cost a disabled person to live a dignified life. For the same level of disability, the amount is the same whether your other income is £25kpa or £125kpa and that is right and proper. In society we do our best to spread the costs of misfortune so that those who are unlucky in life get support from everyone else. Someone with no legs who has a good income is still an unluckier person than someone with the same income who is fit and well and has all their limbs, and it is right that they should get some support.

The other issue, away from the financial side, is that so many other services have been cut to the bone and PIP is a qualifier for it.

My DD probably could manage financially without her PIP. However, her support services (which she wouldn’t be able to live independently or work full time (wfh) without) are dependent on her getting PIP.

This is nonsense. The constant comments saying there would be more for those in genuine need, if those that did not need it, etc, etc. Those people spouting that bs have no doubt, never had to try to claim PIP, in the first place.

I don't know anybody who receives PIP
I should start hanging around tattoo shops

To keep denying people scam the system is enabling them.

If you don't think some people do it when there are whole Facebook groups dedicated to coaching just how to do that then I don't know what to tell you.

I do know that it's hurting the people who definitely deserve that money.

Let’s not kid ourselves this isn’t true. I know someone who uses his £400 Monthly PIP towards his holiday fund as he works full time and doesn’t need the money. Another friend did have an accident which meant they couldn’t work for a while and was awarded PIP however they’re now fine and have freely admitted they don’t want to work, is mainly supported by her husband and uses her PIP for fun money. She said she might get a job when her PIP comes to an end which was supposed to be this year. Lo & behold she was automatically awarded it until 2030 with no further checks or meetings! Just a letter through the post to tell her! So please don’t tell me that everyone who gets PIP is really in need of it and given the enormous benefits bill we are facing and precarious state of the countries finances then yes I totally agree with the OP.

Do the Facebook pages provide medical evidence too?

‘Saying’ is not enough to be awarded PIP

These groups and influencers are actually telling people how do to dla not pip. Dla fraud is a real thing. Pip not so much as the assessments are very different.

No one gets PIP for their child.

Also, if receipts should have to be provided then that should go for all benefits including UC and child benefit.

It is not sustainable to provide sickness and disability benefits at the rate we are - £100billion in total separate to those claiming this year, forecast to be £130 billion by 2030.

We have a higher number of the population reporting needing disability and sickness benefits than any other country. We have seen faster growth of this group than any other country - the number of claimants has increased 60% in five years

10% of the population is claiming some of sickness or disability benefit, 7 million people. 4.7 million of those are of working age.

Let that sink in. That is crazy.

The country cannot afford this - and yes it’s legitimate to say ‘is this money going to the right people, and in the right amounts’.

Those who react emotionally and accuse those of challenging it as cruel in some way - do you really see this as a sustainable situation? Where do you think the money should come from to fund it?

Why has the UK suddenly got such a huge issue with this compared to comparable nations?

Interestingly, the U.K. does not have free speech.

there are all kinds of opinions and statements and questions that expressing them will get you into trouble.

you don’t have a right to express an opinion.

and in this case, the opinion you have expressed has simply demonstrated that you know very little about the benefits system or indeed disability.

so forgive me if, as someone who has been seriously disabled for the last 14 years following an accident, I conclude that you don’t know what you are talking about and this is just yet another person who likes to whinge about disabled people.

I will happily lend you a wheelchair for a day so you can begin to experience what my life is like and maybe then you might begin to have some understanding of what severe disability can look like.

I'm talking about all disability benefits.

Where I work is a very run down town. A lot of unemployed people. I can give you examples of what colleagues have told me but it's pointless because everyone on here has a Pollyanna attitude towards society and think people don't scam the system. But they do.

It is not sustainable to provide sickness and disability benefits at the rate we are - £100billion in total separate to those claiming this year, forecast to be £130 billion by 2030.

We have a higher number of the population reporting needing disability and sickness benefits than any other country. We have seen faster growth of this group than any other country - the number of claimants has increased 60% in five years

10% of the population is claiming some of sickness or disability benefit, 7 million people. 4.7 million of those are of working age.

Let that sink in. That is crazy.

The country cannot afford to continue on this path. Similar countries are not facing the problem at this scale.

Those who support it and refuse any acknowledgment of it as an issue - where do you see the money coming from to fund this in the longer term? What does it mean for tax payers?

No, I know, I just wanted to give the OP a different viewpoint that’s all.

No you said "pip isn't fit for purpose." Never a mention of child DLA. Two very different benefits.

PIP is supposed to make sure that disabled people can function in society. That is quite literally precisely what it is for. If the people you know are functioning in society, then the PIP is doing its job.

Of course there are people scamming the system just as there are people who are not honest on their tax returns and people who steal from shops..etc etc.
But this type of thread is formulaic:
i know people who are scamming the system because they gave me a full breakdown of their finances at the bus stop
money is spent on luxuries
I’m a hard working tax payer and it’s just not fair that they have more disposable income than me
its the same stuff every time. Just throw in a few inaccuracies about the current system (on this thread it’s pensioners and winter fuel) and voila you have today’s benefit bashing thread.