PIP isn't fit for purpose

[Ljcrow]

I made this comment on another thread and thought I'd start a separate thread purely on this topic. This is all from my own personal experience rather than from reading/hearing anything, I'm only going off what I see day to day.
The people I know who claim PIP do not need it financially. One works full time and earns more than me (and I'm not at imminent risk of homelessness or starvation) and the young people I know literally tell me things like their PIP's come in so they're off to get a new tattoo, which they then do. They appear to have much more disposable income than me.
These are all people who can function in society by the way and as far as I can see, all PIP does is give them extra spending money, which I'm sure we'd all like.

I'm aware this won't be the case for everyone who recieves PIP but it is for the people I come into regular contact with. Which is why it needs reloooking at so it only goes to those who actually need the money for a specific purpose related to their disability.

We're not in a position as a society where we can afford to give people money who do not actually need it.
Things like this should be means tested, both in terms of whether people have enough income to live a decent life without additional benefits and in terms of what the money is actually going to be used for.
PIP is not fit for purpose and needs scrapping or totally changing.

Nope. They are not the same. I’ve explained how they differ. Your reading comprehension is your own business. But OK you win.

So how would you manage someone like me who is single and needs the support to go to work and pay taxes?

One works full time and earns more than me (and I'm not at imminent risk of homelessness or starvation)

So non-disabled workers get to spend their disposable income on treats and holidays and the like. But disabled workers should have to spend it on disability-related expenses instead?

Sounds wonderful.

But you can't just say im to anxious to go out alone. When i was agoraphobic I was under the cmht had a cpn a care coordinator had a community dentist the drs had to do home visits this is all evidence that was used to apply for pip. Do you honestly think people just say I have anxiety so can't go outside and the pip assessor just says ok no probs heres some money

I live in a 5 bed house mortgage free. 1 child.
I get full rate pip due to cancer. Shoot me now! 🤣

before having to give up my (high tax payer) career I paid into the system so I’ll bliminin we’ll take back out what I rightfully deserve and am entitled to!

Okay I misunderstood as you called him a support dog. An assistance dog is trained legally to perform physical tasks or to alert to conditions like an epileptic fit.

I have already pointed out to you I am not talking about emotional support dogs because they aren’t assistance dogs for PIP. For PIP, there is case law around what counts as an assistance dog. PIP define them as dogs trained to help people with sensory impairments

I used the wrong word then. Funny how that’s because of my disabilities. He’s a trained assistance dog who I didn’t say not get from a charity and who wasn’t trained by a specific charity.

hes allowed to go to work with me and without him (and a load of other stuff) I couldn’t go to worn.

I think part of the problem that we see in our industry is that you get generations are claiming PiP for conditions that older members of the workforce have managed to work for 50 years without.

They are incredibly open about to it all and sundry in staff rooms etc with nary a thought that the chap they’re talking to is a 70 year old undiagnosed version of himself.

it builds resentment.

I bet the people arguing with you haven't even paid enough tax to cover their basics but will think you're the one bleeding the system dry

Well my friend with MS can go out and walk like normal some days, and other days he can’t. I don’t personally know anyone with anxiety that debilitating but I know they exist.

This whole thing is like: I think we should close the prisons because a small percentage of people are falsely imprisoned. Let’s forget about all the ones who need to be there, and focus on those very very few people who don’t.

I agree with this. I work full time and know plenty of older people working who work with a variety of serious physical conditions

Not one person on the planet has the exact same medical needs as anyone else

Come on now @Xenobitch You and l have been on enough of these nakedly benefit bashing threads to know the drill. If you claim PIP you’re either a scrounger or a cheat, and you can’t possibly have extra costs brought about by disability because your wheelchair/crutches/ walking stick/whatever therapy or treatment, are all provided for by the state. What more could you possibly need ? Why should you have nice things ‘at the tax payers expense’ ?

It’s bullshit. So sick of these threads popping up regularly and attracting the same posters who know nothing of disability and yet feel entitled to comment like experts.

There are lots of people who get mobility for anxiety and neuro diversity without any physical disability

But you don’t know this was paid for by PIP, do you? One assumes they have other sources of income, a partner, CMS, birthday money, child allowance, savings. Just because they receive PIP does not mean that every single penny they spend is from their PIP payment.

Just as the person getting a tattoo cited in a PP above might not actually have used the PIP for it - it’s not like it’s ring-fenced in the bank and you tick a box to indicate that specific payments be deducted from that section, is it? The tattoo-ed one may have spent all their own general funds on their prescriptions, travel to physio and had to wait until the PIP payment arrived to, effectively, reimburse themselves.

It tends to be those of us who are acting as appointees who open separate accounts to transfer our DC’s payments into, because we are terrified that someone will report us to the DWP if they spot us in a salon or nail bar… because, of course, we MUST be spending our children's PIP payments on ourselves.

My mum claimed pip when she was terminally ill. She was eligible. Are you saying she shouldn’t have been? She’s dead a long time now, so you don’t need to worry about- she’s not getting it any longer.

but my conditions have been present since birth, plus I had an accident due to them that made things much worse.

Every time someone starts a PIP thread it plays into the hands of those with nefarious intent…this is going to long so buckle up!

The DWP’s own statistics on PIP fraud estimates that it is around 0.4% of claimants, so agreed it’s not zero but it is statistically negligible and considerably lower than other benefits.

Everyone seems to ‘know’ someone who receives it and isn’t disabled or seems not to be. Unless you’re privy to their medical records or with them all the time, every day, it’s difficult to see how you would absolutely know.

Most narrative from newspapers/ news programmes/ politicians is inaccurate when speaking about PIP - Motobility isn’t a ‘free’ car, you don’t get ‘thousands’ and neither do you tell someone you’ve got ADHD and get PIP automatically (I’m not having a go at those with ADHD either).

PIP is not given for a diagnosis or diagnoses but for the impact that they have on your day-to-day life and to try and mitigate the increased costs of being disabled.

If you need to apply the initial document is about 40 pages long (if you can’t apply on-line), the application is broken down into daily living and mobility sections and there are questions around all aspects of life - the more detail you can provide the better and you need to be very specific and also provide medical supporting documentation from consultants/ GP etc.

To be honest; that’s quite difficult as you have to focus on all the things that the applicant can’t do. About 35% get awarded at this first stage.

If it’s turned down you go to ‘mandatory reconsideration’ where you can supply more evidence or information (about 15% get awarded at this point).

Then you might have a face-to-face meeting or phone call with a consultant - who may have a ‘medical’ background of some sort (physio/ paramedic/ nurse) but isn’t a disability specialist and they’ll ask plenty of questions.

If after all that you have not been successful you can opt to go to tribunal which is independent of the DWP and is a panel of 3 people. You submit another pack of information which is reviewed and you then attend and answer any questions the panel may have and a decision is made on the day and communicated to the DWP and the claimant. The rate of success at tribunal can be as high as 75%. Any process that has a success rate that high at the supposed last stage of the process would suggest to me a failure of the process earlier on.

IF PIP is awarded you then get into a cycle of ongoing reviews which can be every few years irrespective of the nature of the disability - lifetime awards are rare - even when there is no prospect of improvement.

That is one place where the PIP process should be improved, the unnecessary cycle of reviews for people whose disability is lifelong/ not going to improve - keep that as their baseline rather than requiring more paperwork every few years.

If this sounds personal, it is to me, my experience is based on being an Advocate for my BiL who has learning disabilities following a brain haemorrhage as a toddler. No prospect of improvement in his abilities. He was in receipt of a lifetime Disability Living Allowance award (DLA), a heritage benefit, adults are being migrated off of it (children when they reach 18 I believe) - this is also a factor to consider when people talk about increases in numbers of people on PIP - some of that is due to people moving off of DLA.

He was migrated, received the benefit and we then had to apply for PIP - essentially revisiting all the information submitted already to support the DLA application. After this application where the evidence of his doctor/ consultant/ local authority was disregarded he was awarded 0 points despite requiring regular support with everyday life including cooking, communication, banking, travel.

Ultimately we went to tribunal after 13 months (having been through appeals and F2F interview where the reports bore no resemblance to reality) the PIP is stopped 4 weeks after it is turned down so good luck if you rely on that money - and it took less than 15 minutes for the panel to award him 26 points overall (enhanced in one side and standard in the other).

That is not a small oversight or miscalculation, it honestly felt like a process designed deliberately to grind down the person applying until they gave up. Many people do give up or acquire support from charities and services to help them through the process or they just don’t bother applying at all - is that really how we should be treating some of the most vulnerable people in society?

I get that some people won’t feel that they want to apply as they are financially stable - clearly your decision to make - but that stability can change or you may find yourself in need of equipment or support that PIP can contribute to.

So honestly, if someone is prepared to try and jump throw all those hoops to ‘game’ the system to obtain AT MOST £195 a week, good luck to them - and, to use the title of another recent thread - this is a hill I will die on.

End.

I know. And if they receive benefits for it, they have had to prove that in their case it is debilitating.

But the NHS does provide wheelchairs, walkers and sticks. I know, I have them, and without getting pip. If your physical disability is very severe then you may need to pay to get more than a basic electric wheelchair.
But honestly if the NHS says you do not need a walker, stick or wheelchair, then you don't need one. It's not hard to get from the NHS.

Obviously people have to do more than state they are anxious but it's not hard to see how a dishonest person could lie about being agrophobic, get doctors to visit them etc. There isn't physical evidence in the same way as someone with physical disabilities has.

I am now of the opinion that those who are in receipt of PIP should never reveal it to anyone, lest they be judged and found wanting.

Just as I have counselled my DS when he started Uni not to tel anyone about his AuDHD unless there is an absolute and clear need to do so. Only the disability team and his tutors are aware.

If people on this thread are going to continue making sweeping statements based on no evidence at all, at least use the correct terminology....you can't claim for neurodiversity. Neurodiversity is the word for the umbrella concept describing the diversity of all human brains...

And its repeatedly the same misinformation being spread their not the best listeners its always having to explain you can't get pip under 16, pip isn't an out off work benefit, you can't just go to the gp say you feel a bit anxious and get pip, the car isn't free. Anyone can become disabled at any point.

My pip is just money in my bank account.

I would hate to add up what my disabilities actually cost me - I have specialist physio outside working hours (because I couldn’t do my job and be off once a week for physio in working hours) and that’s £75 a week. Roughly what I get in pip after my Motability payment comes out. And that’s not counting the cost of washing and tumble dryer for my incontinence. Or the cost of heating because I’m always cold. Or the cost of pre prepared veg etc coz I can’t chop. I dread to think what it would be if I added it all up.