to not want ds, 9, to attend the sex education lessons at school?

[fircone]

It's just that he is only a little boy. He is the youngest in the year and is completely un-streetwise. His friends' mothers are unhappy about these lessons too.

I'm not Victoria Gillick (remember her, anyone?) and I would be happy for information to be provided at the end of Year 6 before they move up to secondary school, but I strongly feel that at nine years old this is going to be all too much.

I know that there is the brigade who insist that children must be aware of everything from the earliest age, but I am happy for children to stay children for as long as possible.

Anna - well that is very surprising. complex fractions at age 9 - in yr 3? In my son's school fractions are not even taught in yr 3 although they do learn french and another language too from yr 2. Why would spanish be too early in your daughter's school? Not sure i follow at all your insinuation that because i think education about "sex" ( note - sex not bodily changes etc) should not begin at age 9 , that I would view language lessons at same age as "too early"? . Can't see the connection myself.

lisalisa - I am just trying to challenge your assumptions about the appropriate timetable for learning as children everything we need to learn in order to be functional adults.

Society has changed since we were children and the timetable needs to adapt.

The actual mechanics of sex are the least important part of sex ed. The most important elements are self esteem, self confidence, knowing how to say no, not giving in to peer pressure, and at some point knowing the full facts about contraception, pregnancy, STDs etc etc. IMO you can only expect your DC to be able to do that if they do know their details.

My DD is only 5 but she has asked about babies and I've answered her questions honestly. She knows about periods, I've had to explain about why I take a contraceptive pill, and we've had many an indepth conversation about gay marriage and adoption! My intent is to keep a very open dialogue so she doesn't get her sex ed from the playground. Personally, I don't think you can rely on the school to do this for you. It is our responsibility as parents to ensure they're equipped.

I think this is more about your own concerns and worries to be honest lisalisa. The fact that you think that a simple description of sex might be Too Much Information to share on a board for mothers, who have undoubtedly had sex, probably more than once says it all to me. Also you think that children should only be taught about sex to "protect them", and then only at the age of 11 (9 being much too young for them to be able to cope). I have a 7 and a 9 year old, and over the years they have asked questions. Not because they are ready to have sex, but because they see pregnant women and babies, because ds has stiffies, because they see the difference between male and female bodies, because they discovered it is nice to touch yourself, because they read (age appropriate) books which include romance, and because they, like most children wonder "where did I come from". I have answered their questions, and in the course of that we have covered all sorts of things. Not as yet practical mechanics, but I can imagine how that could come up because children think about these things (does it hurt? sometimes the first time, but a special fluid is made to make it more slippery etc etc).

Making sex into some taboo subject is really not helpful, and it is foolish to think that children don't think about sex or relationships, or that they couldn't cope with age appropriate knowledge. Personally I think those conversations naturally begin at about four or five.

nooka - I 100% agree with you! They just want answers to their questions. If things don't make sense to them ... e.g. but how does the penis get inside the woman's vagina? ... then they just want the answer so they can understand it. Your 9, 10, 11 year old isn't going to think "wow, that sounds interesting, I'm off to try that right now!!". They're more likely to think that it all sounds a bit weird and wonder why anyone would want to do it, but at least they know.

I've said this before somewhere else but Let's Talk Sex by Davina McCall and Anita Naik is absolutely brilliant.

Well, I'm fine with open and honest questions, and while I firmly believe that parents are best placed to give an ongoing education about sex, that's not the reality for many children, and school should be able to provide some substitute.

I'll reserve my right to withdraw my children from the school-based stuff though, given that they get a thorough, age-appropriate sex and relationships ed. at home (hypothetical, I know, but still)

I refused to allow my son to have the lessons. IMO, he is not ready to take that information in and use it appropriatly. I answer any questions he asks in the way I know he can handle it. I actually saw the video they were proposing the (then) yr3 watch, as part of my decision making process, and I found it to be wholly inappropriate (imo) for ANY child of that age, not just mine. But mine is the only one I make that decision for.

if you don't let your child watch 'the video' when the school deems appropriate you are giving your child a very strong set of messages:

• there is something 'bad'about the subject (so bad your child need to be protected from it)

• there is something different about your child (as they need to be treated differently from everyone else in the class)

• you are concerned about a subject that none of the other parents and teachers are concerned about, so you are not going to be easily approached when your dc has questions

• you would prefer your dc to learn from second-hand gossip rather than straight forward honesty from teachers (so clearly you have no confidence in the teachers either)

So - if you are aiming to make your child feel isolated, confused and undermine your own and the school's relationship with him/her then go ahead - don't let them watch.

My child is autistic. Both of them are. My children would behave VERY VERY inappropriatly, based on my HUGE amount of previous experience of what they do with information. My children are obsessive. My children already ask many inappropriate questions of everyone around them and make statements such as "Look at my wee wee". I can well imagine what would happen if they were to hear all about sex, mastabation etc at this stage. My children like to act things out (repeatedly)- this is likely to be socially VERY damaging. My children DO actually need to be protected from such things at this stage in their development in order to avoid additional social problems and other issues with their behaviour. I can imagine how other children would react and view them and their inappropriate behaviours. My children would not be able to understand the information and would be totally confused. But above all else, my children are MY children and I will make such kind of decisions in their best interests.

So thank you for your most kind permission for me to do what is best for my children. I will indeed do that. What a weight off my mind the permission of a stranger who knows nothing is.

Hecate - sorry to hear about your children - that must be very challenging for you. I reacll first learning about autistic childrne years ago on MN and the huge respect I have for her since then.
On the subject of sex education - hmmmmm - ok you lot are making me slightly re-think. Although I wonder whether there si any link at all between early sex educationa nd therefore awareness and the prevalence of under age sex /abortions etc? I mean the theory says to inform them et etc but the facts ( more underage pregnancies and abortions than ever before and STDS ( I sound like a dM reader!!!)) speak for themselves too.

Oh please don't be sorry, lisa, I'm not. I was just really really pissed off by that poster's attitude. If they'd said "I don't agree with you, I think that X, Y, Z" then fair enough, I'd just have explained my situation and why I made the choice, but that snide, sarky, bitchy tone - especially that last bit "if you are aiming to make your child feel isolated, confused and undermine your own and the school's relationship with him/her then go ahead - don't let them watch." got right on my fecking tits. I'd like to follow her round MN and boot her up the arse all night!

Sorry - meant to say I learnt about autism from jimjams . if you meant shimmy's post maybe she didn't knwo your children are autistic ? ( havenb't read whole thread).

But huge repsect to you anyway.

lol! Thanks, but I don't deserve it! Respect to you for raising NT kids! I couldn't do it - I think they're hard work and bloody odd! I'm lucky - I've never known anything other than autism, so it's quite normal. I suppose it would be harder if you had any children without autism. As it is, I don't think it's any harder than parenting any other child, just really REALLY different

And I don't expect that she did know my circumstances, but that tone was totally uncalled for, regardless. Anyway. I'm going to picture her with a huge infected BOIL deep in her arse and then forget all about it.

hecate, "inappropriate... for ANY child of that age" though? so not entirely about your own.

i didn't have any sex ed apart from ye olde syphillis film at 13yo. i am sort of ready to say stuff about in mummy's tummy to ds but would far rather it is done properly at school by sensible people like mb and cod.

Yes, I did. I personally thought the video I watched was TMI for a yr3. But that was a by-the-way, and my own opinion, expressed courteously and not at anyone in particular and I stated that MY child was not ready for the info and I ended by saying I make decisions for my child only. AND..and and and....Nowhere was there any snideness!

yy your situation is (of course) different, but what was your own experience? i wouldn't wish mine on any child, got most of my info from edna o'brien.

[my mum got a book and forgot to give it to me]

My own experience of sex education? Painful.

My kids will be taught be me and dh, at the right time, in the right way based on their understanding at that time. Not shown a video because they have reached y3. We answer any questions, so that will just continue. Although that comes with its own risks - ds1 pointed to himself and asked what "that" was. So I said "It is your penis". Well! we had 3 months of penis talk, penis waving and penis sharing before he decided to call it his weewee cos that's what it did and never mentioned it again.

My 9 year old ds attended the sex education lesson at school. I warned dh that questions might arise. Sooooo..... they are in the car on the wy to mini-rugby and ds asks from the back seat " Dad, is it really true you have to put your willy inside the girl then?" (cue long long long pause while Daddy struggles to watch the road and find an answer...." yes" he says. Even longer long long long pause, and then a very worried little voice pipes up ".... so how do you ask her for it back, then?"

PMSL Sal. That is SO funny.

lisalisa on Wed 02-Jul-08 21:12:39
"Although I wonder whether there si any link at all between early sex educationa nd therefore awareness and the prevalence of under age sex /abortions etc? I mean the theory says to inform them et etc but the facts ( more underage pregnancies and abortions than ever before and STDS ( I sound like a dM reader!!!)) speak for themselves too."

I don't think you can have read the statistics properly.

Britain, where more people are negative towards sex ed than in many other European countries, pretty well heads the list for teenage pregnancies and has done so for a long time.

The countries with low rates of teenage pregnancy are the ones with a long history of sexual education, that is the Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands.

As I understand it, there is a current rise in UK teenage pregnancy, but that is to be viewed against a drop in the same that has been going on since sex ed was introduced. I may be wrong, but I believe we are still doing better than we were before sex ed.

When I grew up in Sweden, certainly some of my teenage friends were having sex, but I never heard of anyone getting pregnant- except one. And that was the Baptist pastor's daughter who spent a year as an exchange student at an American college and came home pregnant.

I don't think there's any evidence that early appropriate sex education is linked with a high rate of teenage pregnancies, or with increased sexual activity. Those countries that have a history of clear and unembarassed sex education tend to have less of a problem.

What I think is more a cause of teenage (and younger) pregnancy is the sexualisation of society as a whole - everywhere you look, people are using and selling sex as though it was the ticket to adulthood, while giving very confused and mixed messages about it to children. So at the same time it's something which all adults are doing as much of the time as possible, plus something taboo and therefore even more desirable. Add the lack of education in how to say "No" (apart from Cod's classes!), lack of understanding of contraception, and prevalence of playground myths (you can't get pregnant if you do it standing up, or if it's your first time, or if he pulls out fast, etc), and it's no surprise we have a lot of confused but tempted teens out there!

I am always baffled by these discussions. I can't understand why people wouldn't want their children to have as much information as possible. And I have watched the video used in my dc's school - it was innocuous to the point of tedium. It talked about growing up and body changes and friendships - mentioned sex only briefly and in the context of relationships and was followed up by a talk by commuity nurses (one took the girls, one the boys) which went into a little more detail and gave them the chance to ask questions. Has anybody actually seen the "explicit" videos that people talk about? I always thought they were an urban myth!

Tbh the marked difference in pregnancy rates between the social classes suggests that this is little to do with education and everything to do with aspiration.

Presumably both working class and middle class teenagers are growing up in the same sexualised society, they have the same natural instincts, they are exposed to pretty much the same sex education at school and condoms are available at a modest price to everybody.

But middle-class teenagers also have something else. They tend to look forward to an exciting few years ahead: maybe going to university, or travelling, or preparing for a career of their choice. They are going to think twice before they blow all that on an unwanted pregnancy.

And that is what they have in common with their Scandinavian counterparts of all classes. IME both my generation and the present generation of Scandinavian teenagers (my nieces' and nephew's generation) have expected to have a lot of FUN in their late teens and early twenties. And this does not seem to be a class based thing- maybe because so many good things come free there. Anyone can have a barbecue on the beach and swim under the stars.

That IMO is the big challenge for the British "underclass". How can they find an early adult life that is fun enough to outweigh the prospect of a small council flat and a whining baby? Doesn't seem a lot to ask, does it? But clearly unsurmountable in many cases.

And I have no answers to this. But I do realise that I have had a personality change and am turning into Xenia. Must have some coffee.

PMSL at Sal's ds, that is the funniest childish question about sex I've ever heard.

What did dh say?