To think that some parents are shit at parenting and that's why their children are little shits

[Itwasthe90s]

There, I said it. 😂
I'm sick of parents excusing appalling behaviour with everything but they actual problem - they're doing a shit job and need to do something differently, read a parenting book or go to parenting classes.
Hitting other children, being rude to adults and throwing a tantrum every time they hear NO shouldn't be brushed off like it so often is these days.
And don't get me started on parents who blame the teacher, the other child, or literally anyone except their own precious offspring.
Yes, children have additional needs. Yes, they have difficult days. But sometimes a badly behaved child is simply a badly behaved child whose parents refuse to set boundaries.
When did gentle parenting become synonymous with refusing to tell your child they're behaving like a little shit?
Go on, tell me I'm wrong.

Yanbu. And so many of the problems caused by these kids is blamed on schools and teachers. Drives me mad. That said, I truly believe parenting should be on the national curriculum. We can’t rely on shit parents to magically get better. Society needs to intervene.

I disagree. Of course it’s down to personality but it’s also about boundaries. It’s having expectations and consequences for actions.

On top of teaching we now have to set up social groups to help children understand social norms. I have games groups to help them understand turn taking, friendships and winning and losing. I don’t mean 1 or 2 children. I have groups of 6 and need to add more children or find time to do extra groups.

It’s even more obvious when I look at the early years and ks1 and their siblings are pretty much going in the same direction.

I agree with PPs. We are quite strict parents with firm boundaries, and we are frequently judged by other parents for telling our children off (no smacking or verbal abuse, obviously - just firm boundaries). Interestingly we also encourage independence when safe - e.g. letting the children walk a little way ahead of us on the way home, letting them play out in our cul de sac, etc - and get plenty of judgement for that too. It feels like there's a lot of judgement, and not much support, for parents these days. DH has older kids with his ex (they're now young adults) and remembers there being much less judgement 15-20 years ago, interestingly.

I have one child who is very easy to parent, and one child with significant SEN who shrieks, kicks and punches despite firm boundaries and firm parenting.

If she's well behaved 90% of the time and she's only three, I'd say you're doing a great job!

I'm talking more about older children who seem to have absolutely no boundaries or expectations placed on them, and no real awareness that other people have feelings and needs too. Children who haven't learned to share, be kind, consider others or understand that they can't always do exactly what they want, whenever they want because they are so used to getting their own way.

Obviously, all children have difficult days and nobody expects them to be perfect, but there's a difference between a child who occasionally misbehaves and one who seems to have never been taught that their wants aren't the only ones that matter and that being well mannered and pleasant is an important part of being human and getting along in life. Particularly when they're old enough to know better.

Clearly you missed my post about the many things we absolutely put in place with my son, and therefore that we do teach him every lesson humanly available.

Beyond telling him to listen to his teacher, me taking over her behaviour management does absolutely nothing to teach him to listen to her.

I actually had a whole conversation with my son’s teacher last year, where I said that the lesson he needed to learn was that if she said sit down, he sat down. If she said it was time for maths, it was time for maths.

The kid takes an absolute fucking lend if the person managing him in that moment gives him even a single inch. So yes, I would have potentially told him to listen to his teacher (not that my son understands a message that long) but the actual behaviour management needs to come from the person managing it at that time, or he’d continue to take the piss out of them.

Nice thinly veiled comment at the end though 👌🏻

It 's sometimes more the case that "they need help with it". I started teaching in a school mid-year, and I was warned that one lad with ASD really struggled with changes of teacher, and this was sometimes worse if they were female or non-white. Number one target on his individual education plan was tackling this, and he was making progress. TAs in his classes were aware, so could keep an eye if they had a supply teacher.

I guess that's a kid who could have turned into a racist misogynist if not helped specifically with getting past the problem of "different" people. I'm hopeful that he will have turned out okay, because everyone was on board with tackling it.

I agree. As a mum to an autistic and a child with ADHD I don’t ever use their diagnosis as an excuse. It can sometimes be an explanation (for example; he didn’t realise what he said was rude, however, that doesn’t excuse what he said and he will be appropriately punished) but it’s NEVER an excuse.

It’s a difficult one to raise on a talk forum like this, I think.

Yes there are undoubtedly children who are just naughty due to poor parenting etc

However, we are only just coming out of centuries of deeply unfairly treating children with additional needs as “naughty” and punishing them. In some cases children with additional needs have been killed due to a mistaken belief they were naughty, possessed, evil, wilful etc

It’s huge stain on the history of humanity that this happened.

In more recently years, parents of children with such needs have been shamed for being “poor parents” when this was simply not the case.

And both of these things are still going on
in many places and ways.

So this discussion whilst it does have a place, is understandably a very difficult subject for many, and touches a raw nerve.

I don’t know what the answer is but we have to work towards it without taking steps back to an extremely dark past.

It wasn't veiled. Thinly or otherwise.

It's actually nothing to do with SEN, please stop trying to make this about your child and dragging SEN into every conversation about shite parenting or badly behaved kids.

The VAST majority of children do not have additional needs. Excusing why a small percentage might be justified in some behaviours is nothing to do with the generalisation and societal shift OP is talking about.

It is of no surprise to me that all the SEN parents have jumped straight on here and made the thread all about them, when OP was clearly not talking about SEN.

Professional victimhood.

Thank you for this. I've cried and felt like a failure over my DD's behaviour. Like the nursery rhyme 'when she was good she was very very good and when she was bad she was horrid'. Its better as she gets older but still really tough. I've been told I'm too strict by people who haven't seen the tantrums. Point is, it's easy to judge when it's not your child.

That's just three year olds xxx

Exactly.

Again, it does an absolute disservice to how all SEN parents are perceived.

You may well be very right, but it isn't a good look to kick someone when they're down.

What are you saying that isn't completely obvious in a casual lazy generalisation sense of the word?

Perfect parents of MN assemble.

Totally with you here. Toddlers have feral moments. You’re doing well if it’s only 10% of the time!

I think a lot of people get toddlers though. Totally different from a rude or out of control 8yo, for example!

Fair point. It was actually quite blatant, my mistake.

Thankfully, I made a career out of understanding and managing behaviour, so won’t be crying into my pillow about SuperMumsOfTheInternet disagreeing.

I'm not kicking anyone when they're down. I'm not walking up to the parents of horrible kids who are behaving horribly and telling them what crappy parents they are and how they should never have had kids.

I'm starting a discussion on a forum aimed at parents, about modern parenting

Absolutely true. But as more parents have become unconcerned/actively caused problems for schools, that's caused more problems for good parents who have children who have genuine problems. I know one family (could be you from your post!) who have a son who has always been easy, but their daughter has always struggled, and she got in with a bad crowd at school. All her friends have parents who don't care, and enable them going online/committing crimes/argue with the teachers and police. So even if you're a good parent, if you have a challenging child, and all the parents around you are bad, you'll struggle.
Like when I was at primary, children who once wouldn't have been allowed in mainstream due to profound needs had a TA who helped as they couldn't use a toilet/were not verbal etc. I thought it was great to include and welcome everyone, but now, so many parents don't bother to toilet train that the staff who were meant to help children with genuine needs have to spend their time with the children of lazy parents instead.

Thank you. Tough to remember when people stare at you with a toddler screaming bloody murder. Only hope the boundaries now help when she's older

This could be my child so let me give a potential scenario.
Child with multiple disabilities including motor, social and learning. Overwhelmed by sports day as they can't physically match the abilities of other children, they are expected to try, they fail, they get upset and want another go. Still fail, try to have another go but are told no so they get upset and react badly. Parents don't immediately get involved as seeing if teacher can de-escalate but attempt to ask child to make amends but realise that is not going to happen as the child isn't capable of processing the situation in the moment and needs time to calm and reflect.

Having an autistic child does not give you a free pass from being a shit parent. Shit parents come in all categories.

You can usually tell the difference between a decent parent of a child with SEN who's just struggling, and a shit parent of a child with SEN who isn't even trying.

I was a teacher for 20 years and have 2 ND dc, one in specialist. I've met an awful lot of parents of children with SEN and seen how they parent.

A decent parent will be correcting the child, maybe gently taking the toy back if they've snatched or trying to distract with a different toy. A shit parent will ignore or say they can't share, they've got xyz diagnosis.

A decent parent will try and calm a situation if a child is having a meltdown/doing something socially unacceptable, maybe trying to help them get to a quiet space, deep pressure to help grounding, distraction...whatever work. (Or doesn't work but know they can't just ignore in public so still try). Sometimes I'd just sit on the ground next to DC rocking with her. I probably looked like a complete tit but needs must!
A shit parent just wouldn't bother. Might ignore. Might shout at the child and make things worse.

You can usually see the parent/child dynamic to tell though.

Obviously not foolproof, everyone can have moments of shit parenting. But a parent trying to correct a child, SEN or not, is generally not going to be a shit parent.

Well you’ve said you disagree but it sounds like we agree 😂. Personality plays a part, parenting plays a part.

My point is, easy kids can flatter your parenting whilst inherently more difficult children can make you look like a waste of space even when you are actually doing a relatively good job. None of that means there are not bad parents around.