To find all these "why aren't people having children any more" arrives absurd

[CurdinHenry]

It's not really a mystery is it

The real intrigue is why people still do

It's not a logical choice, it's something else that's very hard to describe

Well, people don't generally come on Mumsnet to start threads about how mediocre or nice things are, so that's going to be the case for most people, if you simply go by their threads.

I'd say it's the difference between "This specific woman in my office is being really annoying and what can I do about it?" vs "All the people at work nowadays are all terrible"

Also, lots of people ask questions (on eg exercise) and discuss their interests, it's not all interpersonal problems

In my wider family group there are 6 young couples between the age of 25 and 40. One has three kids, two of them have two kids each, two are both currently expecting, and the remaining couple are the youngest but, all being well, intend to have kids one day.

So from that random sample (from more than one continent and four nationalities), it is 100% have/want children and 0% who don't.

I expect our branch of the family to expire. DS will have to meet a helluva woman before he trades in his life for kids. I also think he would be wrong to rule out the option, and I rather hope he will put his energy into the future.

Governments are constantly handwriting about it, the media etc. I agree it's a good thing that women have a choice. But we need to look at alternative ways to make ourselves more efficient

There is always work for unskilled labour. They don't have enough people willing to do it when benefits are close to a working wage.
Society needed working class people to keep having children. I live in a working class area, most people have one or two, you find the the odd large family, large families are a thing of the past in western culture.

It isn't all drudgery. I chose only to have one. I have no desire to be a martyr any more than the next person but my ds has provided me with endless hours of interest, entertainment and humour. I have experienced so much that I would not have done without him such as:

learning a martial art
hours spent cycling, picnicing, rock pooling etc
I can ski in backwards snowplough, essential while teaching a little one for the first time.
I make brilliant birthday cakes
I have good mum friends I would never have known
I can cook so much better than I could before ds
When I had a fit after a covid vaccination, he was there to call an ambulance
I have learned a huge amount about nutrition, health, about myself, about how other people work
I have a genuine sense of achievement
I am a nicer person
I have a kind, educated, intelligent son who loves me unconditionally.

There are plenty of benefits - as well as some drudgery 😁

People seem to put more energy into dogs than children - there seem to be far more of those around. I think it is general selfishness (obvs not in the case of those who can't have children or feel they can't afford it) and the fall of Christianity. It is only in the West though. Africa and some parts of Asia are increasing their populations massively. It means the future of the world will be African/Asian and possibly Muslim.

That's a big reach, and personally I disagree. But just to be clear, are you saying you think it's selfish not to have children?

Depressing that that attitude is still around.

I’d actually argue it’s selfish to have a child that either wasn’t wanted, can’t be given the life you’d like to give it, or can’t be adequately parented for whatever reason.

You are actually considering the needs of the child sometimes, by not having them.

That's interesting, as most people around me don't have children (I'm in my 40s). I know lots of people do, and my family members do but I don't see them very much.

I think it's that people with children don't seem to have the time and/or money to do the things I enjoy, so I don't see much of them.

Yes for some people it is. The culture is all about self fulfillment and acquiring material things as we have lost our Christianity. There are a few people who realise they would not make good parents for various reasons and make a considered decision but that is different.

So in other words you think it is people's social duty to have children?

It's not exactly a social duty but if you are a Christian (and other religions are similar in this regard) it's a natural development in life. I have had more joy from my children than any material possession and it's a shame more don't get that experience because they've been led down the wrong path.

I suppose you could look at the question from the point of view of life itself rather than children. And you could look at that through a religious or philosophical bent.

By that I mean - is life a gift? Most would say yes - the ones who don't think that usually end it. And the people who choose to live their life without children will usually extoll the virtues of a more enjoyable lifestyle - more money, fewer demands made on them etc. Do we own our life outright, as in, are we under obligation to continue the gift giving, by passing it on to a next generation, or do pull up the drawbridge and let it stop with us and so on.

Thete is more to life than having children. As someone who wasn’t able to have them I have to believe that.

What worked for you won't necessarily apply to other people.

People who have don't have children get joy from many things that are not material possessions. It's not a binary thing.

If not having children is 'the wrong path' how come the pope doesn't have a couple of kids?

I think that in Catholicism (I presume you mean them as you mentioned the Pope?), life is a gift from God. That accounts for their anti abortion stance, which continues through being anti death sentence and anti suicide; you cannot destroy a gift from God. And equally, you pass the gift on, by giving life to others.
The pope and the monastics use the "out" by spending their lives in the service of god - through worship or doing god's work, instead of having children. Many religions offer that "out" - I am thinking the Buddhists and so on.

That's not always the reason (and I'm a Christian myself btw, so it's not like I'm unwilling/unable to see it from your POV). Congenital birth defects, poor health/disability on the part of the potential parent, not everyone can afford kids, plus some people (myself included) are simply not cut out to be parents for all sorts of reasons and it's surely better for people who cannot be decent parents to swerve procreation than potentially visit suffering on kids who didn't ask to be born.

And 'they've been led down the wrong path' is offensive imo. In saying that you're only a step away from saying if people don't want children it's because they're sinners, materialistic, or both.

What if God decides to withhold that gift from you?

I would say that it is utterly heartbreaking @MrsShawnHatosy. 💐

I am not Catholic, or any religion really, and so do not speak from that point of view. But I am curious about various belief systems.

I don't know what they would say about God withholding that gift. It is sorrowful though.

Yes of course that is true, I wasnt meaning to offend/upset anyone, either people who can't have children for whatever reason or those who have thought about it deeply and decided that is not the right path for them. I mean that I think our society does not highly value having children and gives our the wrong signals and doesn't support parenthood partly due to turning away from Christianity and also feminism giving the impression that women are made weaker by having children (and depending on a man which does make it easier). This means some people don't have children who would find fulfilment in that area as many are unconsciously influenced by the culture. I don't think strong families are encouraged in general.

Oh, I don’t know. My new trainers didn’t keep me up 11pm - 5am last night.

On the other hand my expensive designer stilettos did keep me up every night over the weekend. Its a bad path.