To find all these "why aren't people having children any more" arrives absurd

[CurdinHenry]

It's not really a mystery is it

The real intrigue is why people still do

It's not a logical choice, it's something else that's very hard to describe

Actual women in the UK are still replacing at 1.95 (the 1979 cohort mostly past fertility). According to the data women born in 2007 won't have their first until 35 and won't be able to catch up. But is that really going to be the case? I see young couples having children.

Without knowing your viewing habits it’s a bit difficult to say how representative this is, eg if you watch a lot of RuPaul’s Drag Race then it’s probably not a massive surprise if most of the cast don’t have kids. In the case of the White Lotus Season 3, the showrunner Mike White doesn’t have kids and hence is probably more likely than most to have childless or childfree friends which has a knock-on effect on his casting choices, eg Jennifer Coolidge was a friend of his before the show started. Leslie Bibb and Sam Rockwell are long-term partners so yes neither of them has kids.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, I haven’t done an exhaustive study, but if I was to take another anecdotal example eg Grace and Frankie on Netflix, of the lead cast Martin Sheen has 4 children, Sam Waterston has 4 children, Jane Fonda has 3 children, Brooklyn Decker has 2 children, June Diane Raphael has 2 children, Ethan Embry has one child, Baron Vaughn has 2 kids, only Lily Tomlin has 0 kids.

I do read these articles because I find the dilemma of declining birth rate interesting. Countries have been using financial incentives with varying degrees of success, none have successfully pushed their birth rates up to replacement level. Two examples are notable - in Scandinavian countries where there is greater participation by men in family responsibilities the birth rate is higher. In France, there are big tax breaks for larger families, & I think that works because France imposes high tax rates on wages, thus working families can see a noticeable improvement in disposable income. However, tax breaks wouldn’t be so effective in lower tax countries.
Surveys suggest that people who want children often have fewer than they would like, so often someone with one child would like to have 2, someone with two would like to have 3 (not in every case, obviously)

I'm researching my family tree and have found out my great grandmother had 14 children! That was back in the late 1890's-1920's. My mum had three children and two of us, both 50+ have never had children.

I think the problem with the articles, which is the point that I was originally trying to make, is that they’re often framed in a totally misleading and disingenuous and dramatic way, eg the FT just the other day published an article titled ‘Why people don’t want to have children any more’. It’s this that I’m saying is bullshit, most people do want to have, and have, at least one child and the statistics support that. If the article was titled ‘Why people are having smaller families’ I wouldn’t have the same issue with it.

My mum is one of ten, my dad one of nine - they were born in 1959 and 1961.

My sister has 2, I’ve got one, who I actually adopted in my early 30s. My brother has 0 of his own but is stepdad to 3.

None of us were ever going to catch up with my grandparents!

Honestly like another PP I've never had that viseral urge to have a baby, in fact when young I felt the opposite. I also when very young vowed to be nothing like my (Abusive and neglectful) mum and never have kids and get married. Must have stuck because I've never done either!

Do you mean staying childfree or stopping at less?

I had children but I stopped at one because 1. It was hard. 2. I could.

Even now on mumnset you see people feeling guilty/guilted into thinking a child needs a sibling, so I imagine that was a real pressure for the previous generation.

People also expect more from life now. They want two nice cars, foreign holidays and swimming and music lessons for the kids..When my parents had kids, that stuff just wasn't typical and it was simpler times. Only a few kids in the class had music classes, half the kids didn't have a car and you got a week in caravan courtesy if The Sun £10 holidays and counted yourself lucky.

These articles never tackle why parents are having fewer children (not any) which is actually the biggest contributor in the declining birth rate. But perhaps then we would have to finally invest properly in maternal care and give pregnant women respect and dignity- which ain’t going to happen.

Also when I was young if you think the patriarchy is bad now...I don't think it's anywhere near like it now but men used to boast about their virility by having children. I even remember a Only Fools and Horses episode where that were taking the micky out of someone 'firing blanks' by calling him a 'Jaffa.' A type of seedless orange!

My family seem to buck a trend in that our previous generations weren't particularly big. My dad was one of 2 (that survived infancy) and my mum was an only child (her parents were very impacted by wartime separation). Both my mum's parents were one of 2 (had siblings that died). They seem to have a lot of premature death in every generation

DHs family seem to be more typical - his dad was one of 8 and his mum one of 5. He is one of 5 (blended) too but 3 of his siblings don't and probably won't have any children either. Several of his aunts and uncles have had no children, and those that have had children have not ended up with grandchildren.

I am someone who can't explain the urge but was desperate to have dc. I always wanted to have multiple dc but the sheer expense and effort was very successful in curtailing me! I just cannot comprehend how people manage large families financially as we are lucky and both in well paid jobs but find our teens incredibly expensive and we haven't got to driving lessons and uni fees yet!

I would have my dc again but I do not feel remotely supported by society in parenthood. I don't feel good about the future for any ongoing generations either.

To me there is no mystery why people don't want to have loads of dc

I didn’t know Mike White has no kids but that’s an interesting point around casting, albeit a little far-fetched (hard to believe he would favour child-free actors in general, fair enough if they’re friends with him already).

But fine, let’s return to your example. You mentioned Jennifer Aniston so let’s take the main cast of the TV show Friends.

David Schwimmer - 1 kid
Jennifer Aniston - 0 kids
Matt Le Blanc - 1 kid
Matthew Perry - 0 kids
Courtney Cox - 1 kid
Lisa Kudrow - 1 kid

Higher % child-free: 1/3 vs ~15% (this is the proportion in the US, slightly lower than the UK), plus a much lower average number of kids (<1).

And geopolitically...

I actually don't get what's so obvious either (as mentioned by the OP) - birthrates are declining in all developed countries and the reasons are varied.

Economically there needs to be jobs for the replacement population to actually do.
It's all very well journalists and politicians wringing their hands about us needing more people paying tax to help the older population but you've got to actually have them in jobs to do that. I'd prefer if someone came up with an alternative plan rather than bring more people into the world.

I came on to say the opposite. I’m teaching my children they can be parents and have their ambitions. It’s all very well saying I’m not having children. Don’t act like it’s some great accomplishment though. If all women thought the same we’d either be screwed (human race) or over populated.

I hope I wasn't coming across that I thought it was a great accomplishment @EverMerge. Of course people can be parents and meet their ambitions. I'm talking about the lack of jobs for young people, not the lack of ambition.

To be fair I’ve confused replying to your post and another. Completely on me. Sorry!

How do you work that out when the women who earn more, have more financial independence and freedom, are the ones having fewer or no children.

Its not about money, its about choice.

I agree! People would have more kids if they had good salaries, reasonable work hours and commute, affordable housing, affordable childcare. It's not rocket science, is it?

I understand the thinking behind women choosing to have fewer children. I had one due to secondary infertility. It wasn't what I planned but if I could have my time again, I would probably choose to stop at one.

But having one is very different from having none.

It's personal choice. So many surveys, which ultimately show it comes down to differences in cultural beliefs/economic backgrounds. Having a big family is a priority for many religions, along with the high rate of teenage pregnancies in areas of generational expectations.

So, basically, the birth rate has decreased in the sphere of planned, work hard for to provide, financial thinking of the average parents but remains the same for wanting/having lots of children, so it will balance out.

I 100% agree people who don’t want kids should be free to choose that and I said so in my other comments.

However there are people who have maybe one or two children but would have had more if they could afford a bigger home but don’t want their children to be cramped in one room. My parents (a stay at home mother and a bin man) could afford a three bedroom house now many dual high income families can’t afford that.
But as I say it’s cyclic, if the population decreases because of this houses will become more affordable.

People still think we have to choose between forcing people to have kids and allowing infinity immigration when AI is about to take many peoples jobs we shouldn’t be trying to force the population higher. For the sake of a bulge in the elderly population which will naturally resolve itself when they pass away over the next few decades.

Birth rates are declining in every country where women have a choice so it's not hard to work out.

Women don't want 10 babies they will struggle to feed, clothe and house. Women don't want the danger of repeated childbirth and the associated birth injuries.
Women who have an education and the chance of a better standard of living and a better life, will take it.

My gran had 12 dcs.
my mum had 6 dcs (the pill became available while she was pregnant with her
youngest).
I have one dc. I also have a degree, a career, a house I own outright and a pension.

And not everyone can have them. Less social pressure is good for them too.

But if a woman already earns well and has independence and freedom she may not want to jeopardise those things by having children.