Bicycles and scooters on pavements and shared walking spaces

[PerhapsPerhapsMaybe]

AIBU to think that scooters and bicycles on pavements is out of control and it’s time there were laws to protects pedestrians

Vibrant is one word for it 🤣 is never not an experience visiting, my children couldn’t get over how dirty the place was

Children shocked by a dirty city!

Yes when it’s so in contrast to where they live and ironically where the houses are a fraction of the price and far fewer new cars on the road, we’ve travelled across Europe with them and they’ve found it less of a culture shock than east London

Children have eyes and a nose and observation abilities.

Why wouldn’t they notice?

You will be less pleased to hear that neither police nor councils can be arsed about enforcing them.

Numbers aren't relevant, you have to look at how many deaths per mile/hour per number of cars/bikes. There are a lot more cars doing a lot more miles, so you'd expect a lot more deaths. To compare, you need proportions.

have we really as society just come to accept death on the roads rather than take safety precautions when operating a car. Should we be the same about murders or rape? ah well the population has grown so the numbers have to be calculated by the number of people or the number of males - as that will change how it looks

I find this really incredibly sad - so as there are more cars on the road its ok that they kill more, that really doesn't matter to the person that is dead - or the family grieving that death

No. Slow down and pass wide. If you need to ring the bell, you are going too fast.

Ive been the cyclist in this situation. If I couldn’t pass safely, I got off my bike and walked it past.

2 years ago I was knocked down on the pavement by a teenage boy on a bike resulting in an A&E visit and a broken bone in my hand. I am 68 but not disabled in any way. Today walking back from the local shop, three boys aged about 13 or 14 were weaving about on their bikes from the pavement to the road and back again. It's a very quiet road with little traffic. I (stupidly) said quietly to the nearest one "Could you keep off the pavement please?". He then started shouting "What? What?", so I said "You're not supposed to cycle on the pavement.". He then started shouting "Can, can", and all three boys cycled up to and around me on the pavement, stopping ahead of me and blocking the pavement, so I had to walk in the road to get round them. I kept my head down and ignored them and luckily they lost interest and didn't follow me home. Am I wrong to find this quite frightening after my previous experience?; I don't live in a rough area btw, a nice suburb of a large town.

I think you'd be annoyed on a dual carriageway if two cars drove alongside each other and you couldn't get past.

Pedestrians walking side by side and refusing to move over to let other path-users by is the same. I will stop and force them to go round me, but you can only do that if you are coming towards them, it's not so easy to get by when you come up from behind.

And even less so when cyclists are injured.

We could also reduce the number of deaths by adopting Vision Zero principles. Cities like Oslo & Helsinki have done this so it is possible.

That would involve improving the cycle network so it would also reduce conflict between cyclists & pedestrians.

The number of people killed by cyclists is extremely low although those rare cases tend to be turned into a cause célèbre (see for example Iain Duncan-Smith MP’s campaigning on this). Unfortunately all the effort that goes into people campaigning on this is unlikely to improve road safety in general because cyclists really don’t cause that many collisions.

In contrast just this weekend, I’ve read several heartbreaking reports of car drivers causing collisions including one driver who killed someone after inhaling nitrous oxide and one who killed someone after looking at her phone. These cases rarely get the attention they deserve & my local paper really hasn’t figured out how to report dangerous driving / e-motorbike or scooter riding properly: recently they ran a “brave victim recovering from horrific injuries story” completely overlooking that the “victim” had actually been riding an illegal vehicle.

Personally, I’d like to see regular reporting of road collisions on the national news (perhaps a daily round up as there are so many) so that they get the same attention as rail collisions.

Cyclists are supposed to ride two abreast (other than on very narrow country lanes). It makes them a size of a car and then it makes drivers do an appropriate pass instead of doing a close pass when another car is coming towards them.

As a driver when I approach an oncoming car wanting to overtake a cyclist, I always move slightly towards the middle of the road to nudge them into waiting until I've gone by. Sometimes it works, sometimes they go anyway and I have to slam my brakes on. So many drivers would rather have an accident than wait behind a cyclist until it is safe.

Last week in Germany there was a horrendous accident where a driver (male of course) killed four teenagers on mopeds because he decided to overtake several cars at once and ploughed into them.

I cycle on the road if I’m on my own but if I’m with my kids I cycle on the pavement with them so I can keep control over them, they know they have to stop and walk around pedestrians, and the pavement we use between the house and the cycle track is quite wide and quiet. I wouldn’t let my kids ride on the road, it’s too dangerous.

The bell is meant to warn you of the approach of the cyclist so you are aware and can move to one side (if in the middle of the path) or retract the dog lead. It's not rung to tell you to get out of the way but people interpret it that way. The cyclist should also be adjusting their speed and/or direction and be prepared to stop.

You’ve missed the point of my comment, which was that cyclists are not allowed to ride on a footway (which, unlike shared paths, is solely for pedestrians). Cyclists don’t need to make pedestrians aware of their presence somewhere they are not legally entitled to be.

As I said previously earlier in the thread, it’s always been the case that there is an exemption if cyclists are using the pavement due to fear of traffic although they should be cycling responsibly. That presumably would include using their bell to alert other people to their presence.

If your council doesn’t build adequate cycle routes, then you will get people cycling on the pavement as lots of roads are dangerous.

Where in the Highway Code does it state that cyclists can use the pavement due to fear of traffic? I just looked and was unable to find any such mention.

Not sure why I posted this as it doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. It had just happened and I was quite upset.
I guess if children cycling on the pavements keeps them safe then a few old ladies getting injured is just collateral damage. They'd probably fall at some point anyway.

Its awful that anyone is hurt, child or old lady, but over 30,000 people were killed or seriousy injured on roads in england and wales last year - not sure a bit if pavement cycling is really the issue here

Of course the roads are horrendous and many times more dangerous than pavements. But pavements are supposed to be safe spaces for pedestrians...... Where else are we supposed to go?
Also, wasn't this thread about cyclists on pavements???

This has been a bit of a bugbear of mine since my 6 year old daughter was knocked over by a speeding cyclist on the pavement outside our front gate. She fell on her head, suffered some memory loss as well as nasty bruising and a twisted ankle and as time went on, some distinct personality changes.. Police were called but downplayed the whole incident and it was never recorded, or even treated as a crime.
Today, nearly thirty years later.....was working in my front garden , lost count of the electric scooters and adults on bikes speeding past on the pavement outside so nothing has changed.

What's the point in having laws if they're not enforced? People would soon stop cycling on the pavement if there were immediate consequences...the bike/scooter confiscated and destroyed but people know the resources aren't there to do that so why would they put the safety of others over their convenience?

My latest concern round our way is the number of cars backing out of their driveways over the pavement to get to the road. With high hedges and high SUV cars, a child walking past could be wiped out by an inattentive driver. A neighbour, backing at speed out of her driveway recently, narrowly missed my granddaughter who was skipping ahead of us as 4 year olds do on pavements. She apologised profusely, looked sick to her stomach and I still have nightmares about it.

Paul Boateng (then a minister) issued guidance in 1999 when the law was introduced. This was subsequently confirmed by Robert Goodwill (then Minister for Cycling). If you do an internet search on something like this”Boateng defence cycling pavement” you will find various articles on it.

It really isn’t an ideal situation as having bicycles on pavements isn’t great for either pedestrians or cyclists. But then cycling on a busy road with no cycle route is scary (unless you are a fit road cyclist who can keep up with the traffic) so people will end up cycling on the pavement as they don’t want to be run over. It’s an engineering problem and it’s disappointing that for much of the country, it’s not a problem that council engineers are solving.

And shared spaces, which are not pavements.

Because the solution to cycling on pavements is engineering the roads so that there is a safe and connected cycling network. The relevant government guidance is Local Transport Note 1/20 - if your council isn’t building cycle routes to those standards, then you will get cyclists on the pavements when the other alternative is cycling on a dangerous road.

It’s not ideal, but given that on the main road near me I often see drivers speeding / on mobile phones etc., I can’t blame any cyclist for not wanting to mix it with the traffic. I do blame my council for not building a cycling lane & making the road especially given the collision stats.

There’s also the problem that cyclists often held to a different standard to other road users. For example drivers often encroach in cycle lanes (unless they have bollards) which is more dangerous than people cycling on the pavement yet there is rarely any outrage about this. It makes it very difficult to have a rational debate about this.

If cyclists are going to do that they at least need to recognise that they’re there on sufferance. Which means causing as little inconvenience to pedestrians as possible, preferably by going at walking speed and not expecting anyone to move for them.