Altercation in carpark

[Icecreamsundaz]

I was in a supermarket carpark, I had put my baby in her carseat and had just loaded my groceries in the boot. A car parked in the parent and child space next to me and an older couple got out, early 70s I would guess, able bodied, no kids with them
I said "sorry do you realise thats s parent and child space" and I pointed to the markings.
Well his response was very rude in tone "I came here to do my shopping, not to dance around" ?? "It should be first come first served " and they stormed off. I was a bit taken aback, I said loudly but they were a bit away at this point so not sure if they heard me "god id hate to be so ignorant". I took a picture of their car. Not really sure what I was going to do with it, thinking I would think about it and perhaps report to management. I got into my car
The next he was at my window "you took a photo, its illeageal to take photos of other people's property, delete it." I ensured my doors were locked, he stood behind my car so I couldn't reverse out, she was at my windscreen taking photos of me. Eventually they moved and I got out.
Maybe I shouldn't have said anything but there were loads of other places they could have parked but the parent and child spaces are limited. Its very frustrating when I've all my kids and can't find a free parent and child space because people like this who dont need them take them and they don't give a shit

I have R A and had both knees replaced and a screw in my ankle. I dont have any trouble walking now but I did before my ops but I couldnt get a blue badge. I think its more wear you live. So I think your relative was very lucky to get one.

Not always, no.

And this is what I was saying upthread. Private car parks can impose their own rules as long as the signage is clear. Public and LA provided car parks have to follow the law - and P&C spaces are concessions so they can’t issue fines.

Agree. We have a couple of supermarkets here and it’s notable that the superstore P&C spaces are much nearer entrance than the disabled ones. They are also right in front of the store, next to the walkway, whereas you have to cross the car park to get to the store from the disabled ones. Wheelchair users are at the same risk as young children in car parks - they are low on the road and can’t always be seen - so I have no idea why the spaces are places as they are. As a result I mainly use the smaller Morrisons as the disabled and P&C spaces are in a shared row in front of the store right next to the walkway.

How did they know they didn’t have a child with them whilst they were shopping in store? 🤔

Well they were friends of hers so I assume they told her about this themselves 🙄

Exactly - I would imagine they couldn’t do that unless they saw them return to the car with no children. I’ve been in private car parks in which P&C spaces attract a parking charge for misuse and I’ve seen attendants ticket cars where the parent has left the child sitting in the car in a P&C space while they do their shopping. I’ve also seen the reaction when the parent has returned to the car to find they’ve been caught - it’s not pretty !!

I think it also depends on the circumstances in which you speak up. If you do it without knowing your facts you shouldn’t be surprised when you get shut down. I don’t think it’s particularly a woman thing.

They were seen leaving their car when arriving, and returning to their car with no child .... There are a few stores here that ticket for this...

No child with the couple when they left the car, or returning to the car.... It's a profilic car park where the attendants (from a parking company) love ticketing.... Here it is absolutely and utterly signposted that these are for people with children under 12. And after some altercations in the car park the managing company started ticketing for it....

You have to be sure of your facts before you speak up though OP. And the fact is that you were berating this couple for parking where they did even though there is no law against it. If one or other of them has a disability or health condition that doesn’t meet the threshold for a blue badge they may have been using these spaces for ease for a while.

You say you didn’t see a disability, but that absolutely doesn’t mean there wasn’t one. If that’s the case then you could quite easily just be another in a long line of challengers and maybe they got arsey because they’re sick of explaining themselves, which they have no obligation to do.

For context, I’m a wheelchair user and because I don’t present as disabled behind the wheel, I’m regularly challenged when I pull into a disabled parking space before I’ve even opened the door. Sometimes it just gets tedious having to explain yourself over and over again to complete strangers - most of whom have no skin in the game because they’re not disabled themselves, they’re just busybodies.

Entitled?

The clue is in the title - it’s a parent and child space.
What’s entitled about using a space designed for you?

Several posters mentioning we never used to have them years ago, and?
Could the same not be said for a lot of things?
Surely it’s obvious a lot more parents drive now.

If you don’t need it, why use it?

She might be able to get away with it in a supermarket car park if the supermarket owns the car park, but if she took your advice and parked like that in a private car park or a council run car park, she would get a ticket or a PCN.

You are standing by advice that could cost your friend money.

Agree it’s not entitled to use the space. Whats entitled is to try to police it for others with no thought as to why they may be using it. With the exception of private car parks who can levy their own conditions, P&C spaces are advisory only and not backed by law. Theoretically anyone can use them.

I’m not advocating for misuse because being a wheelchair user I can well appreciate the difficulties parents face wrestling kids prams and shopping in and out of the car, and wider spaces are a godsend. But in this case it was an elderly couple and OP was very judgmental in her assessment of the situation.

I have to say that as a blue badge holder if I saw an elderly couple parking up in a disabled space I would assume they were having difficulties before I’d jump to ‘entitled twats’ which seems to be the theme throughout the thread, and the only challenge I would present is to make them aware that without a badge they’re likely to be fined. I would have no problem in principle with them parking there if there was a need.

I don't think you can claim the moral high ground of being a woman who speaks up when you've targeted an elderly couple in their 70s!

i wonder if it was my husband who said it to this man, would he have squared up to him like this man did to me, spoke to him aggressively and block him from leaving the carpark?

Quite a drip feed about the 'squaring up' and 'aggressively' your OP didn't say that, you said he stood behind your car.

If anything, he put himself in a vulnerable position by standing behind your car, because you could have reversed and run him over and then claimed you didn't see him.

I admire your patience, Ross, this message is not entering people's skulls!

Some people think women should be martyrs. The post you quoted is also implying that having a washing machine and dishwasher is entitled. It’s patronising, bitter misogynistic bullshit. Good women shouldn’t do anything to make their lives easier - take the bus, hand wash your dishes and clothes like the good old days, eh.

I understand there are many posters on the thread saying that there are no issues with the spaces existing for parents but other people may need to use them and they shouldn’t be policed. I agree, no issues with this. It’s the people who are incredulous at why parents of young children would benefit from these spaces and giving it the old “bAcK in MY dAY” shit that is probably pissing a lot of people off.

If they are a blue badge holder and mobility issues directly influenced how they had to park, it’s grounds to appeal the ticket. This applies both private and public car parks because under the Equality Act 2010 local councils and private operators have a legal duty to make reasonable adjustment for disabled people.

As a disability outreach worker there were several occasions where I successfully supported people to appeal this kind of ticket. Where there are no wider disabled/P&C spaces available and a standard parking bay is too narrow to allow the door to be opened fully to allow the person to leave the car, or safely to use a mobility aid, then enforcing the over the lines policy can be argued as indirect discrimination. It’s not easy and you have to submit evidence clearly outlining the situation and prove that your mobility is directly the issue, but it can be done - providing you can prove that the way you parked didn’t cause an obstruction.

But for a ticket to stand they need evidence so they take pics

so what pics do they have as evidence?

This.

I am a mind my own business person and I often wonder about people that deliberately provoke arguments and are shocked that people retaliate.

The silver lining is that you will have given this couple one heck of a story to tell family and friends about the peculiar woman who harassed them at the supermarket @Icecreamsundaz

I agree you can appeal if you have a blue badge, but appealing is stressful and time-consuming. Much better to avoid this.

Pictures are not treated as definitive evidence if they can’t prove the point either way - for example unless they’re in sequence clearly showing no children getting out of the car on arrival. Vanishingly unlikely.

The thing is that you can only attract a charge for misuse of a P&C bay in a privately owned car park. Everywhere else they are a concession and not enforceable with fines. Private parking tickets - PCNs - are invoices for breach of contract and not criminal fines, so parking companies rely on the civil standard of the balance of probabilities. If a car park attendant logs that they didn’t see a child get out of the car or accompany the driver into the premises, or if they see that the child has been left sitting in the car, the company then logs it as a breach of their specific rules.

In the event of a dispute the parking company doesn't need absolute proof - all they need to show is that it’s more likely than not that there has been a breach. So it comes down to what the attendant saw and logged.

The only time I’ve ever successfully challenged one of these PCNs was on behalf of a disabled client who had parked in an P&C space and displayed her blue badge because there were no blue badge spaces available. She was ticketed and the ticket was cancelled on the argument that under the Equality Act 2010 the company were obliged to provide accommodation for disability, and that the enforcement of the ticket would be indirect discrimination because use of the P&C space while displaying the badge could be considered reasonable adjustment.

Actually they are. If you ever get a council or private - there will always be a photo and without one - your appeal would be successful.

There won’t be any photos for someone parking in a parent and child space unless the warden waits around for them to return to ensure they weren’t collecting a child