AIBU to think challenging school rules can harm children’s resilience?

[Teenytinypineapple]

AIBU to think that many of those parents who push back against schools and their rules are completely oblivious to the damage they're doing to their children?

The children who do the best are those whose parents instill in them that they should conform. Yes, that will cause difficulties at times. Yes, there will be things they don't like. But that's life. That's how children develop resilience.

Whilst little Timmy and his Mommy are complaining about the school sending him home for wearing the wrong shoes, little Jimmy has learned to suck it up, wear the damn shoes, get his head down and realise it's up to him to make the most of his education.

I don't disagree that schools don't always get it right but there are ways and means of challenging a school without undermining a school and its rules. That's the crucial difference. Setting the example to your child that they are the arbiter of which rules they should follow does them a massive disservice - schools have authority to create rules. If a school has brought in a rule contrary to legislation, a school can (and should) be properly challenged.

I imagine you are a perfectly reasonable and rational individual, bringing up a fantastic member of society. Sadly, not everyone is like you which is why discretion cannot exist. But policies are there to ensure we all have a method of challenging things we think are wrong. That's the way to do it.

You get it.

It does go totally over parents' head. I think some genuinely do think they're doing the best for their children but they're not.

One thing that would be helpful to children is explaining why rules are necessary. I remember debates in secondary school English about why things like homework and school uniforms are “necessary” - very informative too. I had a lot of respect for rules which were there for a good reason, especially if it was discussed or explained. But if they were there to satisfy someone’s ego, that quite another matter.

In the same school as the books thrown on floor incident, I remember my usual teacher saying “if we don’t get the classroom tidy in time, you’ll miss your play, and I’ll miss my cup of coffee”. I had a lot of respect for that, it made teachers more human when they said things like that, that they were bound by rules too.

And I do think there is a comparison to be made with petty, illogical rules “you do this because I say so!”, which are never to be questioned, and Hitler. And I’m going to throw in the madness of 2020 as well. Some mumsnetters admitted (years afterwards) that they did break the roolz as they saw fit, and let children hug their grandparents, but they had to keep silent at the time, because there was so much public vindictiveness. I’m a netball umpire, so I have to enforce little rules all the time, some of which might seem petty, such as short fingernails, but there’s a good reason for it. “But I’ve only just had my nails done!” I’ve heard many times from adult players, and it gives me no pleasure to tell them that they can’t play.

No. Little Timmy and Jimmy both need to learn to work within the system to get what they want. Rules don't have to be broken - they can be bent, circumvented, exploited, all kinds of workarounds. You just have to be a bit clever about it.

The kids who did best coming out of my school were the sneaky ones. Not the ones who conformed for conformity's sake.

My daughter has just joined year 7 and has had her first ever behaviour point for being 2 mins late to a lesson because she went to the toilet between lessons
That's another lesson we need to help children to learn. Rules are in place for the better of a group. Sometimes the professionals get it wrong or can't separate special circumstances. An unfair decision is the result.

But... that's when we help our kids with resilience. You got behaviour points, is it the end of the world? No. It doesn't have a significant impact on the pupils life. It might feel like it to them. We teach them to rationalise matters. Is it unfair? Yes? Is it so unfair it needs to be dealt with or just move on? If the former, how are you going to deal with it? What evidence are you going to bring up? Etc....

All those life experiences are the exact situations kids need to face to learn to adapt and use critical thinking to set them up for adult life.

Parents taking all this away from them and teaching them instead to moan, complain, mull over the unfairness, act in a victimised way is all doing them the biggest disservice.

The worse part is that instead of giving all children a level start in adult life, it creates the biggest divide by the time they reach adulthood. Those who've learned and adapted and will sail quite peacefully through the transition and those who will never get the chance because they have never been given the chance to learn the necessary skills by their parents.

I don't agree with this teacher's methods, but i can clearly see the reason behind her actions.
She would have told them not to write anything before they were told to because she wants the children's full attention during the input. If you are not a teacher, you are probably not aware how disruptive it is when children don't listen to what they are asked to do, then 2 minutes later it is 'what are we supposed to be doing?' and she has to explain it again multiple times.
This is the point. Parents think something is unreasonable and teachers are on a power trip because they DO NOT understand. When you have 30 kids on your own, the teacher has to be 'on' everything before it becomes an issue. The only way to prevent this is by reinforceing rules, routines and expectations consistently.

I agree OP. Some of the answers to thread shows exactly why there are problems with behaviour in our schools now.

No that’s where nuance and more sophisticated thinking/ analysis comes in which is something we all agree our children should learn.

Sadly entitled parents today are endemic, especially if they’re not particularly bright or educated themselves they see everything as a challenge whilst missing the entire point of rule following.

How do parents deal with their own rules at home? You have a rule that says your child needs to be in bed by 8pm. They don't like it. It's unfair when their teenage sibling can stay up until 9pm. They don't think they struggle to get up in the morning and don't feel tired the next day if they go to sleep at 10pm.

Do you agree and say hey, you know better than I as a parent, it's a stupid rule so ignore it and go ahead and play games until you feel like it.

Do you say to them that you need some time for yourself before you go to bed yourself, so even though it's not about logic, it's the rule and that's that?

Oh wait, no, nowadays kids debate with their parents over everything, and the parents then moan they are exhausted always arguing and they don't understand why their kids are so rebellious, there must be some medical reason!

Mostly agree, probably around 90%. Some stuff needs to be challenged (e.g. poor SEN provision, lack of equal rights, lack of inclusivity and diversity).

But absolutely suck it up on uniform whinges, 'teacher is picking on my child' aka a strict teacher etc etc. Nothing in life is going to be easy. Let your child learn some of those lessons at school.

Exactly. Don't agree with the not bright/educated point, that's just unpleasant.

But yes to the rule following point. If you want your child to be a productive member of society, they need to understand the importance of being able to follow rules whether you agree with the rule or not.

But again: how have people arrived at a consensus about what needs to be challenged?

Lack of inclusivity and diversity wasn't a thing 40 years ago. It's only become a consensus because people like parents (and teachers and many others) were bloody minded about insisting it be taken seriously and wouldn't back down.

You don't get to agreed standards about what is right and wrong without some pushback and dissent.

I've worked in a lot of schools. I don't like rules for rules sake, but the strictest schools do get the best results and where the rules are consistently applied, you don't actually have to enforce them very often.

Where children know there is always a penalty for not having a pen, they always have a pen, and learning time isn't lost to multiple children not having a pen. Staff are aware of those children for whom having a pen is a real challenge and deal with them differently. The fact that they don't need to deal with all the others gives them time to do that.

My current school has rules that look draconian on paper and is often challenged on it at open evening, but students when asked, will report that it doesn't feel strict, they're not living in fear, they just know where they stand.

That said, if a rule feels stupid, they should feel free to challenge it in a polite and constructive way, and they will either have it explained or consideration will be given to a change. Not overnight, but the behaviour policies are reviewed annually and this kind of feedback is taken into account.

It’s a balance between advocating for your child and letting them learn we all have to play by life’s rules.

OMG yes!

• Explained the task.
• Asked if anyone has questions.
• Answered the questions.
• Task is on the board in simple language.

Set them off working. 3 or 4 (or more) hands up. What are we doing? Read the fcking board maybe?

If your child is black and all the images on the school wall are white, despite being a diverse community, it needs challenging.

I agree, shouting/screaming/being offensive doesn't work and isn't appropriate. There are channels. Emailing, booking an appointment with the head or contacting the governors. Showing them how they are not meeting standards. Demonstrating OFSTED expectations in the area that is lacking.

And children can follow those principles too. And involve their parents to make an appointment if the child is ignored or dismissed.

But not because Jimmy wants to wear trainers. Or because Jenny wants to leave campus at lunchtime to go to Costa.

My child is in year 10 now.
He insists on wearing things that are not uniform.
His trousers,his shoes.
I get on at him.
He has proper uniform.
He laughs at me.
He says they don't look at him anymore because he was perfect in the early years.
He still looks smart.
Just not following the rules to the letter.

Some of these replies are really naive, impractical and a bit frightening. You're talking about the social contracts which enable us to live and work together! They balance rights in imperfect ways (how can they be perfect and everyone agree?!) that average out as enabling society to function.

To me, it's pretty obvious. Every time any individual child exercises their "right" to challenge/refuse/question/ignore [delete as applicable!], another child loses their corresponding right to hear/focus/progress/enjoy [or equivalent].

As a case in point, in response to a few "He wasn't even allowed to explain..." posts...

Do you know how many kids will need to "explain" something in the first 10 minutes of an average lesson?

The teacher could listen to them all - to why #1, 2 and 3 don't have any pen or pencil (the story often starts at 7am that morning, and may feature the dog and baby bro, so settle in, listeners...), why #5 and 6's laptops aren't charged, why #7 haven't filled their water bottle in break, why #8 absolutely have to deviate from the seating plan and why #9 and 10 haven't done their homework. They could make the other 20 wait and listen, or set them a different activity to the one planned so they can engage (leaving the 5 learning support kids without the usual check-in they'd get at the start of a task).

After that, the teacher could even adjudicate on exactly why #1 and 7s' rationales made sense, whereas #2-6 were less convincing, and #9 and #10 needed to be revisited later (and, of course, deal with the explanations as to why their decision's wrong... and also hear the sudden interventions of #11 and 12, who overhears and - understandably - realises they're in a similar position to #1 and #7 so should assert their right to explain, too...)

Or they could refuse to engage with any of them (hoping angry parent calls and emails wouldn't get in the way of 3 hours' GCSE marking and the meeting to counsel little Sarah that afternoon).

Sure, if there's something worth fighting, a genuine injustice, challenge it - but do so in an appropriate way that doesn't force corresponding injustices on other students! Or that sets a precedent where your child's right to "explain" undermines the whole damn system necessary to support the majority.

You think the uniform rules are wrong from a financial POV? That's a great cause - take it up! But involving your kid any more than informing them you're doing it and to standby isn't productive or fair on them, other kids or their teachers.

You think the uniforms are wrong from a point of principle, though?! Well, you could encourage a righteous campaign of civil disobedience that disregards other parents' agreement with the policy and interferes with other kids. You could also insist the Head steps away from that safeguarding paperwork to explain the rationale behind the school's uniform policy to you, personally, in depth. Or you could just accept that living in a society means disagreement and compromise (and not bring up a kid to be more likely to queue jump on the basis that they know they're in more of a justified rush than the other randoms quietly waiting - or more likely to apply words like "fascist" to strict uniform rules so such words lose their meaning and impact when they're really needed to distinguish real horrors).

Yeah, I’m sorry but that is BS. I call them out for their appalling bullying, you want my kids to just conform? What! That’s crazy.
I repeatedly and consistently inform the school that they are wrong. I tell my kids that the primary school is utter shit. I trust my kids to tell me when to intervene.
I also tell my children to listen to their teachers if they are actually teaching. I tell my youngest that things will improve in secondary school. I tell my kids that uniform violations, whilst stupid, are what we have agreed to.
It’s stupid policies I object too, not the sensible ones!

The schools don't have rules just to make things difficult for themselves though, if they weren't necessary they would save themselves the bother of enforcing them.

There will be a reason for all their rules, you just don't understand what it is.

Right to challenge politely and find out. Not right to behave as if you always know much better than they do.

Our secondary head is very clear on the purpose of her rules. To install discipline Michaela style, which doesn’t have much evidence behind it

and although I am not vermently against the pointless uniform rules, and expect my child to comply, I do think they’re a waste of time, and before you say it- I did try to get my daughter into other schools- an endeavour that failed because the one she attends is our closest school.

If the children are taught at home to disrespect teachers and ignore their requests, how do you think it's possible for a teacher to get a class to a place where they "are actually teaching"?

I cant imagine with your attitude towards the school and teachers, that your children will ever appreciate when the teachers are "actually teaching". What you might consider a stupid policy may be in fact very sensible, its just you cant see the reason behind it.
Its attitudes like this that led to me strongly discouraging my DD from going into primary school teaching.
My DS came home from school last week giving out about his biology teacher and saying the first few lessons were a waste of time. When I asked what he was being taught it was obvious that the teacher was giving them a good lesson in the principles behind science and an overall view of biology. It was 'actual teaching' but my child couldn't see that until I pointed it out.

I don't necessarily like the ultra strict ethos and I do think there's an element of breaking their spirt involved in having them apply blindly, but for many complex reasons, schools with the strictest uniform policies do seem to perform best.

Sometimes that will be because it keeps "undesirable" families out 😪 but actually parents like that.

Sometimes it's that if children can "rebel" by breaking a 'silly' rule they don't need to move to the big stuff.

The main benefit of "discipline" though is that it provides an environment where teachers can teach.