AIBU to think challenging school rules can harm children’s resilience?

[Teenytinypineapple]

AIBU to think that many of those parents who push back against schools and their rules are completely oblivious to the damage they're doing to their children?

The children who do the best are those whose parents instill in them that they should conform. Yes, that will cause difficulties at times. Yes, there will be things they don't like. But that's life. That's how children develop resilience.

Whilst little Timmy and his Mommy are complaining about the school sending him home for wearing the wrong shoes, little Jimmy has learned to suck it up, wear the damn shoes, get his head down and realise it's up to him to make the most of his education.

The idea that because some adults are child abusers, children should be permitted to pick and choose which rules to follow, is nonsensical.

Teach children that if X occurs, they should tell someone they trust (have you seen the Pantosaurus?). Children can be obedient and follow rules without acting in response to abuse. Following rules and doing everything an adult tells you to are also completely different things and, if a child struggles with that difference I would respectfully suggest they're not yet mature enough to decide which school rules should be followed and which should not.

Like the one at my DD’s school which was that no child is allowed to go to the toilet during lesson time. She bled through her tampon. So yes, that’s is a ridiculous rule that was challenged by me and other parents. Do you have a problem with that?

Dont think theres a simple answer. Do we want to foster spoilt entitlement? No. Are some rules inappropriate and unreasonable? Yes

I wouldnt let my child cheek his teacher and be wilfully non conforming if I could help it. But I also wouldnt let my child stand alone if they felt, and I agreed, a particular rule was unfair or disadvantaged them

There is nearly always a bad parent behind a bad kid.

There’s no such thing as a ‘bad kid’.

That is just teaching them to break rules they dont agree with. OK the wrong shoes or trousers might not affect their education but breaking laws when they are older because they dont agree with them is going to have more serious consequences. Your viewpoint is typical of a parent who acttually doesnt give s* about their child.

I partly agree. Parents should support school and explain the likes reasons for a rule eg no coats on inside because this'll be cold when you go outside. But parents should also be prepared to say 'It does seem a bit ridiculous that you can't put your coat on inside if you're cold, but that's tge really. You can question it, but you have to follow it.'

I'm a teacher.

This is a good example of where teachers should be allowed to use their professional judgement and should not themselves blindly follow the rules. My students aren't meant to go to the toilet during lessons but, rather obviously, sometimes they need to. It's my job to make sure that pupils understand how to behave responsibly. Probably about once a week I'll have a girl who has to go. They know that they don't even have to ask. It's a matter of respect. And I work in a really tough white working class deprived area. I'm not frightened to stand up for 'my' kids. As it goes, boys also need to leave sometimes but generally for them it's first thing when their bowels have woken up.

On the other hand, we have rules about blazers, ties and tucking your shirt in. I don't want 'my' kids to look at if they've been sleeping in a hedge, so I'm quite hot on that one

This paranoia about trouser rebellion leading to a life of crime is hilarious.

Yep I agree, and that is why after 20 years of teaching I have left. Parents cannot accept rules so how on earth can we expect their offspring to?. Last year was like teaching bunch of feral kids with parents complaining constantly. Not worth it, but I dread to think what those kids will be like as teenagers or when they have to join the workforce!

And my point is that training children to comply without question is dangerous
Questioning is good. It's the 'how' you question that is the issue.

Questioning in a constructive, well informed manner is a e skill to learn. It should be encouraged by any school.

However, it's not what we are referring to here. Questioning when it means rebelling, often rudely and not bringing any intelligent argument on the table is being a pain that nobody wants to be around.

I do believe that although the uniform represents a good mean of instauring compliance and respect for rules, I also think that with some children, there are bigger fish to fry. Compliance and respect for rules can focus on more important matters for them.

School is only 7 hours a day!

children can conform to rules during that time, and have more freedom of expression during the evenings and weekends!

Many of the rules regarding uniform are there to reduce bullying from other children who may have homes with different levels of income. This is why branded trainers for example are not usually acceptable as school uniform.

In reality most of us go to work to conform with rules for at least eight hours a day, so learning to do this at school is helpful!

Finally it’s essential that pupils conduct themselves well in a classroom to prevent disruption and support efficient learning.

It’s absolutely the role of parents to ensure that their children respect rules, other pupils and teachers in school!

If parents hadn't protested about the treatment received, especially by SEN pupils, at a local comprehensive, the Athena Trust would not have been forced to withdraw from schools in my area. As it is, they are still in situ until a replacement can be found. The introduction of draconian rules, isolation cubicles and the like, does not contribute to education. Unless you want to produce a generation too cowed for independent thought, oh wait.....

It’s never that, though. It’s usually that Tim is a bit of a bully, or distracted, or needing parental support and not getting it. Teachers are always wrong to these parents, and they know more about pedagogy than someone professionally trained.

This is an interesting one... DS is autistic and very sensory. He did not wear school trousers from y1-y6 once I realised that the concept of trousers were causing meltdowns each time he was getting dressed in them. No problem at primary school where shorts were uniform, particularly when it was clarified on the uniform policy that shorts were for year round use and not constrained to "summer uniform". DH was part of that clatification as a governor and the only tweak to the uniform policy was removing the words summer, winter, boys and girls and suddenly exactly the same list of garments becomes much more inclusive for disabilities and breaking gender stereotypes.

However for secondary school, all schools that anyone could reasonably have the remotest hope of getting into around here are the formal blazer, tie style. There is no practical way of going to the nearest non-uniform school in another LA with complex public transport links (I know, I've worked in it pre-DCs, when commuting by car was a lot simpler!)

We could possibly have applied for "reasonable adjustments" on school uniform, but the reality is schools don't like the obviousness of difference of uniform and it tends to be a battle ground. I went down the route of preparing DS that school trousers are expected y7+, and worked on getting him a fit that he can tolerate, and tolerate it he has. While in a more liberal world he'd feel more comfortable in shorts and is free to do so in 99% of his free-time, the reality is it is better for him long term to tolerate trousers, particularly as he has an interest and aptitude towards engineering fields which have H&S requirements in dress codes. He had an amazing, practical work experience which included site visits in PPE to industrial settings. That could not have happened if he couldn't conform to a safe dress code, disability or not.

Long-term, DS is in a better position for me not going "mama-bear" (🤢) style on school dress codes and campaigning for reasonable adjustments for this. If he was still triggered into meltdowns, that would have been different, but it was worth getting him over that hump of getting familiar with wearing trousers, and more doors are open to him long term for it and he's no longer constrained to a career as a postman

I think I’m with you to a point.

In a school where the rules make sense and they treat the children relatively respectfully - that’s fine. So for the shoes provided low income families have had genuine help - no issue.

But there’s an academy in our city that’s been criticised for not letting children wear coats outside (where they must be) in extreme weather which is just a power trip too far. Little Jimmy also needs to learn to use his brain and dress appropriately for the weather.

Little Jimmy is in the schools care - of course his parents should step in if he’s being forced to stand outside in the ice without a coat. That is a totally unnecessary breach of that trust and care - and for what - will he get better grades with a cold or numb fingers?

This is a very good post and has a really nice balance between compassion and common sense.

Petty and pointless rules do a lot of harm to children in my experience. Moving on from primary where as long as the children made an effort with uniform etc no problem. Nobody took the piss, if a pair of shoes fell to bits s few weeks before the end of the summer term, no worries, no worries about sock colour, the exact shade of grey for trousers. Next school, the fuss they made over the exact colour socks, my son, given the choice of putting his homework into his bag or wearing the right colour socks, socks won because he would have got into more bother with the wrong shade of grey socks. ( Yes, he should have sorted all that the night before, but sometimes it takes time to get children doing that sort of thing). My daughter could wear summer dresses after Easter. A week before the end of spring term, out of the blue the head stopped her in the corridor, maybe she was talking or something. But the thing that was pettiest of the petty was telling her that her trousers were unacceptable. The same pair ( well she has 2 pairs the same) of M and S school trousers, not fashion trousers) that she has been wearing the last 2 terms, they still fitted , weren't right or anything. And there was the time when after an injury the physio said she should wear trainers to help heal, but she wouldn't because she didn't want every tea her pulling her up on it
The school we moved them to was not like that, they did much better with their education, without all the worry over trivia.
In adult life they have no issues with wearing what they need to do for work, so they got there in the end

Yup. I stand corrected. I was wrong

While rules are important, it’s also important we raise children to stand up for themselves.
I'm sick of schools throwing daft rules out there, ones that have absolitely nothing to do with safety or education.
My daughters school enforce some really silly rules, like not letting girls wear leggings or non tailored trousers, yet don’t enforce the rule of not rolling skirts… so my daughter got a warning for wearing trousers that actually looked very smart and she’d previously got house points while wearing for ‘looking smart’… yet all the girls whose skirts are rolled so short that you can literally see their pants, don’t get told off at all,
me forcing my daughter to wear the expensive uncomfortable trousers that she’ll get bullied for wearing definitely won’t cause her to be resilient.. So yes I’ve emailed in before and said the rule is daft and was told that she always looks incredibly smart and can absolitely wear the ‘wrong’ trousers!!

and honestly if no one ever challenged rules where would we be?!….. would our girls even be allowed to learn maths and science? Or would they still be being taught how to bath children… would women be allowed to vote if it wasn’t for women protesting against rules?….

your child will most likely be fine. most of the kids you teach will also, most likely, be fine.

You clearly care a lot about rules, and you've written reams and reams for this thread. It makes you happy, great. I'm unconvinced that being an obedient little rule abider is as good as you make it out to be.

I also have many years of experience in education, I'm also a specialist, and my kids are also fine.

remember to breath @Teenytinypineapple !

Most of things with uniform is sensible though. Like wear the uniform..schools have a dress code.nfollow it. Yes they don't allow trainers. Wear formal shoes and wear trainers for PE.

Do your homework

There’s nothing naive about a statement of fact. Which literally everything I’ve written there is.

I think that parents supporting their children and having frank, open and intelligent conversations about the rules is much more likely to build resilience. Ask Thunberg or Mallala?

My mum was a teacher and I believe that for the most part, it's best to let teachers get on with their jobs and for parents not to constantly be high-maintenance, complaining and thinking they know better, when in reality, they only know their own child and quite often have only been told half the story. I would usually only contact the school to ask for a different approach if something really outrageous or unacceptable was happening, e.g., bullying that wasn't being adequately addressed. I would never undermine an attempt to discipline my child. That's counterproductive. I think it's best to work as a team.

One example I can think of is when my 9 year old got hold of his brother's phone and had an all night phone binge. He was so excited to have the phone and he really went for it and had a great time, but paid the price the next day. He was very hard to wake up in the morning and I found him fast asleep in bed with the phone! I sent him to school and emailed the teachers, apologizing because I knew he was exhausted, but I didn't want to reward that behavior by letting him stay at home. The teachers were great and he struggled through the day. At one point they let him rest his head on his desk for a while. We worked together and he learned his lesson and never did it again. I much prefer collaborating together than constantly undermining and attacking the teachers.