to leave ten year old twins in a cafe while I swim?

[justkeepswimminginalake]

I’m a single parent to ten year old twins and I was hoping to start open water swimming again. There’s a swimming lake near me which has an onsite cafe and I was thinking about leaving the boys in the cafe by themselves while I swim. We’ve been to the cafe a few times and it’s fairly chilled, mostly swimmers (and their friends/families), young families and old people. It’s also next door to the reception area for the swimming lakes so if they feel uncomfortable there’s somewhere else they can go.

Would I be unreasonable to order them breakfast and a drink and leave them there for half an hour while I swim. They’re generally pretty sensible and I’d pack Yotos with headphones, and some games and books for them to entertain themselves. There’s no one else who can take them.

No. They are children. You don't leave kids unsupervised in public places. Watch the news and be responsible.

And, why is it any better than sitting in a caffe they know, having a breakfast they are looking forward to, and using a toilet as humans?

oh, I dunno, we’ve had….

1. they might choke
2. they will be attacked by predators
3. they will run and jump in the lake

there’s some tough competition for the most ridiculous

OP, I'm in the pro camp (because you know how they're likely to cope). Can you update us to how the trial run goes (negatives and positives!) as it would be good to know if your plan works. Go for it! 🏊‍♀️

You do actually. There are lots of examples in this thread of times when children would be unsupervised in public places. My two (11 and 8) walked to school this morning without supervision. They will walk home by themselves as well and then my eldest will walk to and from her dance class by herself, perhaps meeting her 10 year old friend on the way. Tomorrow she might meet friends in the park without an adult to supervise. This is all completely normal and it's how they will grow into independent, capable adults.

The predators one might be my new favourite because I'm now imagining child eating tigers storming the cafe... So irresponsible to expose children to such danger.

As others have said - this is unfair as you are leaving them somewhere you feel they will be safe but that puts the onus on other adults in the cafe to keep a watchful eye on them or step in if there are problems. If they're not mature enough to order their own food and drinks in a cafe and pay, they're not mature enough to be left alone. Perhaps age 12-13?

edited to add: How do you know they will be well behaved?

Yes you would be unreasonable to do so.

Can you share the news stories you feel should be informing OP's decision?

Please tell us why you think that. Maybe with an original opinion that’s not been covered in the last 25 pages.

I think our local sweetshop would close if unsupervised kids were banned. There are a constant stream of upper primary kids at our local park without their parents. The biggest problem seems to be that they leave their bikes and scooters behind after them. If my kids were still in school they’d be walking the 20 minutes home alone like the other Y6s. I haven’t seen any news articles on terrible things meeting two ten year olds alone in a cafe recently. And even if there were, it would be so unlikely that we’d be more likely to come to harm on the car journey there.

Try reading OPs updates. They will be ordering their own food and she is leaving them with money to pay. Why do you think they're not mature enough to do this?

If you aren't comfortable leaving them at home alone, then whether you recognise it or not, you are expecting some level of supervision.

If you are comfortable leaving them at home alone, then just do that.

I can only assume you never leave your home.

I’ve said enough times that I don’t expect them to need looking after by anyone for half an hour. I’m not sure what problems could come up. I do actually trust them to order and pay (and I’ll be getting them to find a table, order and pay when we test it tomorrow) but thought for the first time settling them in would be better. I trust they’ll be well behaved because they’re generally sensible and well behaved boys, and they enjoy going to the cafe so have the extra incentive of getting regular cake to motivate them.

Yep, just waved goodbye to my 11 year old and 9 year old as they set off the same route to school they've been successfully navigating since the age of 7. After school the older one will go to a sports practice with her friends and the other will likely be round and about the neighbourhood with his friends.

I do feel a bit sorry for primary age children who for whatever reason don't do anything without an adult because you can see how much confidence and just plain fun it gives them.

If she left them at home they would be alone for longer and she would be further away. She could do that but taking them to the cafe means they get a nice treat and she is a few minutes away if they need her (which they probably won't).

Why cant you go while they are at school?

That's a different situation. Logic about one situation doesn't need to be applied universally to be sound.

its possible to simultaneously think that they would be safer in a cafe than at home, whilst also not ‘expecting the cafe staff to provide childcare’.

Any person, of any age, is safer in a public cafe with a friend than they are at home.

that isn’t because you ‘expect’ the public and staff to provide childcare, but simply because other people are there, and let’s face it, there is zero chance every single one of them is a predator, so if you did choke on your hot chocolate, someone would help you. Like they would if you were an adult stranger.

This is a bit of a daft argument, because even the hyper-cautious catering-to-the-most-feeble NSPCC acknowledges that length of time left is a significant issue in deciding whether children are able to be left alone. (They also set out that there is a difference between leaving children truly alone vs with another child.)

No one expects you to RTFT on a long thread like this, but at least read the OP's posts, eh?

As another poster said, it’s helped sort out my thoughts, I’ve had some good suggestions and seen what a wide variety of people think and why they think that. When I posted the idea has just occurred to me based on my child asking to go to that cafe and now I’ve had more time to think and more to think
about. And even though the most popular view is that I’m unreasonable, this thread is far from unanimous and having read the entire thread and had more time to think, I still think there’s something in the plan. Obviously it depends on the cafe’s stance on unsupervised children, and if the boys end up liking it or not, but if both of those points are positive then I think I probably will end up doing it. It’s not that I’m not listening to people, I’ve taken on board every comment, but that having read the debate I find myself more in agreement with the posters who think that spending time in a cafe alone is a suitable amount of independence for two ten year olds.

@justkeepswimminginalake if you think your kids are responsible enough go for it .
Try it once if it works keep trying and see how far you get . Don’t ask permission from the cafe then it seems a big deal .
They have each other to keep company . Chat about their games while eating cake .
You deserve something for yourself , I hope it works out for you. .

😂 my 11 year old does this too! It keeps the little independent cafes going.