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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to leave ten year old twins in a cafe while I swim?

702 replies

justkeepswimminginalake · Yesterday 20:45

I’m a single parent to ten year old twins and I was hoping to start open water swimming again. There’s a swimming lake near me which has an onsite cafe and I was thinking about leaving the boys in the cafe by themselves while I swim. We’ve been to the cafe a few times and it’s fairly chilled, mostly swimmers (and their friends/families), young families and old people. It’s also next door to the reception area for the swimming lakes so if they feel uncomfortable there’s somewhere else they can go.

Would I be unreasonable to order them breakfast and a drink and leave them there for half an hour while I swim. They’re generally pretty sensible and I’d pack Yotos with headphones, and some games and books for them to entertain themselves. There’s no one else who can take them.

OP posts:
sugarplumlily · Today 07:33

Jeezitshard · Today 00:09

At eight years of age I was going to a cafe with my friend and ordering a toasted tea cake and a pot of tea for two. That was in wales. I now live in London. At ten I was allowing my daughter to go to Starbucks and sit and read while I went around Sainsbury’s - with our without a friend. I actually thought some of these posters saying absolutely not were having a joke. It seems not. Looks like parenting has changed in the past few years. My daughter is 18 now - I absolutely trusted her at ten to behave in a cafe, order her own drink if she wanted something extra, go to the cinema with a friend. At what point to you start letting go? I see it now - she has 18 year old friends heading off to uni that still ‘aren’t allowed’ to do things. Or have anxiety about catching a bus by themselves. Wrapping them in cotton wool is never the answer.

It’s madness isn’t it. I have a friend who told me last week that her just gone 11 year old went online and successfully booked a table for dinner for her and her other young friends at a local restaurant, and they all went (without parents) and had a lovely time. I thought it was fabulous 😂 I have another friend who is anxious to let their (extremely tall male) 16 year old get the bus to college alone on a 30 minute direct journey. My mind boggles.

Outtaxed · Today 07:37

If this was a regular thing I don’t think the cafe would tolerate it. They’d soon catch on and wouldn’t want multiple parents following your lead.

Also what if a busy body approaches your kids and takes umbrage to them being alone? You could return to police turning up.

I thought kids could not be left alone at home unsupervised under 12 now? So I imagine that extends to not leaving them unsupervised in a public. Much different from the 80s and 90s!!

TheEdgyMoose · Today 07:37

Tacotuesdayfan · Today 07:32

What’s your local leisure centre pool set up like? Just wondering if some indoor swimming (to begin rebuilding your fitness) and the boys sitting along the viewing stands, or if the cafe is only separated by a clear wall/fenced off area that you can see might be a good compromise? Swimming the channel is an amazing ambition - I appreciate the acclimatisation of the cold water is part of your wanting to go to the swimming pond but if you’re doubting if it’s ok the leisure centre might be a nice starting point to build up the trust :)

I'm a regular outdoor swimmer, pool swimming is just not the same. It's not just the swimming, it's being out in nature. There are so many health (including mental health) benefits to outdoor swimming. Pool swimming is no substitute. Plus I don't really see how your scenario is any safer/more appropriate than OP's plan. If anything, having the boys sitting in the viewing stands would be worse as they are more likely to get bored.

JassyRadlett · Today 07:39

Outtaxed · Today 07:37

If this was a regular thing I don’t think the cafe would tolerate it. They’d soon catch on and wouldn’t want multiple parents following your lead.

Also what if a busy body approaches your kids and takes umbrage to them being alone? You could return to police turning up.

I thought kids could not be left alone at home unsupervised under 12 now? So I imagine that extends to not leaving them unsupervised in a public. Much different from the 80s and 90s!!

Where did you get the idea about kids under 12 from?

It would be totally unworkable given kids are in secondary school from 11 and after school/holiday childcare for that age group is thin on the ground at best.

TheEdgyMoose · Today 07:42

Outtaxed · Today 07:37

If this was a regular thing I don’t think the cafe would tolerate it. They’d soon catch on and wouldn’t want multiple parents following your lead.

Also what if a busy body approaches your kids and takes umbrage to them being alone? You could return to police turning up.

I thought kids could not be left alone at home unsupervised under 12 now? So I imagine that extends to not leaving them unsupervised in a public. Much different from the 80s and 90s!!

There's no legal age for leaving kids home alone. There is guidance suggesting that under 12s are unlikely to be mature enough to be left for long periods but we are talking about half an hour in a cafe here.

I'm not sure what the cafe wouldn't tolerate. It's two paying customers eating breakfast. On what grounds would the police be involved? Unless you mean someone else would call them to tell the busy body to mind their own business and stop hassling two kids...

Outtaxed · Today 07:42

JassyRadlett · Today 07:39

Where did you get the idea about kids under 12 from?

It would be totally unworkable given kids are in secondary school from 11 and after school/holiday childcare for that age group is thin on the ground at best.

The nanny state www.gov.uk/law-on-leaving-your-child-home-alone

TheEdgyMoose · Today 07:44

Outtaxed · Today 07:42

It's just a guideline though. There's no legal age.

Ophy83 · Today 07:45

If they are well behaved, and it sounds like they are, I'm not sure why this would be a problem. This is the year they have to start learning to do things by themselves. By next year they'll be getting themselves to school, maybe eve. meeting their mates in town after school and popping in to a cafe/McDonald's.

JassyRadlett · Today 07:47

Outtaxed · Today 07:42

Yeah, that link doesn't back up your statement.

Arbourimage · Today 07:47

Outtaxed · Today 07:37

If this was a regular thing I don’t think the cafe would tolerate it. They’d soon catch on and wouldn’t want multiple parents following your lead.

Also what if a busy body approaches your kids and takes umbrage to them being alone? You could return to police turning up.

I thought kids could not be left alone at home unsupervised under 12 now? So I imagine that extends to not leaving them unsupervised in a public. Much different from the 80s and 90s!!

An 11 year old can of course be home alone, honestly how do you think the 11 year olds in secondary school are getting home??

The police are not going to come out because an 11 year old is having a hot chocolate in a cafe FGS.

LiquoriceAllsorts2 · Today 07:47

Outtaxed · Today 07:37

If this was a regular thing I don’t think the cafe would tolerate it. They’d soon catch on and wouldn’t want multiple parents following your lead.

Also what if a busy body approaches your kids and takes umbrage to them being alone? You could return to police turning up.

I thought kids could not be left alone at home unsupervised under 12 now? So I imagine that extends to not leaving them unsupervised in a public. Much different from the 80s and 90s!!

If the children spend money there and are well behaved why would the cafe care.

YesIReallyDidOK · Today 07:49

Is there a reason you're asking strangers on the internet and not the cafe? If they're fine with it, and you're fine with it, you have no issue.

Were you planning on leaving them there without actually mentioning it to anyone at the cafe? If that's your plan, because you think they will say 'absolutely not' then you are being unreasonable. By leaving them there you are expecting them to be responsible for them, regardless of whether they need looking after.

arminius · Today 07:50

I think it’s fine if they’re sensible. I know people who leave kids that age across the road in a pro while they do some exercise. Christ at 10 I was doing all sorts of stuff without parents around

Ophy83 · Today 07:51

Outtaxed · Today 07:42

This says "for long periods of time" which is undefined. Does this mean an hour? A day? Overnight? In any event it is probably not half an hour. NB OP is minimising the time apart by bringing the kids with her

YesIReallyDidOK · Today 07:52

LiquoriceAllsorts2 · Today 07:47

If the children spend money there and are well behaved why would the cafe care.

There are multiple reasons why a business wouldn't allow children to be unsupervised on their premises. She really needs to be asking them if they will allow it and accept it if it's a no.

LiquoriceAllsorts2 · Today 07:52

How can we possibly expect kids to be ready for the world of work when they are not being given independence and responsibility whilst growing up. As parents we have a duty to prepare them for adult/working life and that includes building up their independence on a gradual basis over time. What the op is proposing is a perfectly age appropriate way of doing this. The only reason she shouldn’t is if her kids are not able to listen and behave appropriately/follow the instructions, but the majority of 10 year olds should be able to and she knows what her kids are capable of.

Outtaxed · Today 07:54

JassyRadlett · Today 07:47

Yeah, that link doesn't back up your statement.

I didn’t say it was or wasn’t the law.

Each to their own and their own priorities though.

Elsvieta · Today 07:55

Why not, if they're sensible? Lots of ten year olds play out by themselves.

Or just leave them at home.

LiquoriceAllsorts2 · Today 07:55

LiquoriceAllsorts2 · Today 07:52

How can we possibly expect kids to be ready for the world of work when they are not being given independence and responsibility whilst growing up. As parents we have a duty to prepare them for adult/working life and that includes building up their independence on a gradual basis over time. What the op is proposing is a perfectly age appropriate way of doing this. The only reason she shouldn’t is if her kids are not able to listen and behave appropriately/follow the instructions, but the majority of 10 year olds should be able to and she knows what her kids are capable of.

Edited

Asking suggests that you are expecting the cafe to look after them. That is not the case, she is expecting the children to be customers of the cafe.

justkeepswimminginalake · Today 07:56

Wow a lot of responses, so here’s some answers to the most common points. Their birthday is in February so pretty much in the middle of the academic year. In terms of what independence they have, they walk down the road to friends, to the park, to our local sweet shop in town which involves crossing our minor road and using a zebra crossing, and if we need a few bits from a shop on our way home I often pull up and one of them goes into to the shop on his own. I’ll leave them at home to nip out to the shop, if I walk maybe 20-30 minutes. I see them going into town and buying sweets as more risky than sitting in a cafe. They haven’t used public transport alone and their independence other than the park seems to mostly be walking to places rather than staying in places. I need to start working on public transport because one wants to try secondary school next year and I think his brother will follow so I need to get them both confident on the bus together and separately.

I can’t go while they’re at school because they don’t go to school. They’re home educated while I work from home. Even if they were in school, I can’t take 90 minutes from my work day to go swimming. It’s just me and the boys and there’s no family nearby who can watch them while I swim. We have local friends I would happily call on in an emergency but a weekly standing childcare arrangement in the evening or at the weekend for 90 minutes at a time, which probably wouldn’t need to be reciprocated feels like piss taking to me. I’m not convinced there are many childminders who would want those times either and calling on a local teen I don’t know feels riskier than them being on their own. As for going for a swim while they’re in a class, it’s 20 minutes away from the nearest town where there’s anything happening and they’re quite busy with activities already and one of them in particular would really resist the idea.

They are generally sensible boys, and while of course they have their moments with silliness and winding each other up, I have no doubts about their ability to sit at a table for half an hour while I swim and if I did then I wouldn’t have thought of it. There was no expectation that the cafe would be childcare because at ten years old, they don’t need looking after for such a short period. This plan only just occurred to me today when one of them asked to go to the cafe, so I hadn’t considered other options which have come up such as leaving them at home, or getting an Apple Watch so I could see calls and texts coming in from them.

IAs for if they can swim with me, I double checked the lake’s rules because I had in my head they were too young and they can’t swim until 11. One of them would call the police on me himself if I suggested getting into a lake in February, the other might be up for joining me but they feel safer together to me and all the times we’ve been to the cafe by the lake, neither have been interested in swimming. That might be because they prefer to go paddle boarding though.

I could drown, or they could choke but those risks seem tiny. They’re old enough to go to the kitchen and grab snacks without me knowing, and I could drown in the bath. We could all get injured in a car accident on the way over. I just don’t consider those risks high enough to outweigh the benefits of them having more independence and me getting to swim.

I still haven’t decided what to do. I was pretty shocked by the initial blanket negativity and posters saying I should be arrested. Even though I thought it would be a discussion I didn’t expect the strength of feeling about it. I was thinking fifteen minutes after I posted that it was a totally terrible idea, but now the thread is more mixed, I’m considering it more again. I think my plan is to go to the cafe with the boys, give them some money and let them order and sit alone in the cafe while I’m outside (in the cafe outdoor seating out of view) to test run and see how it works when I’m out of sight, but also there. Then take it from there. I feel confident they’ll be fine because they have the carrot of breakfast out and cake every week if we do go ahead. I think it will be good for them to have that extra independence, and also to see me doing something I want to do and they have to sit and wait while I do will be good for them as well. I can’t see how it would be a problem for the cafe if it became a regular thing either. They’d be two extra regular customers who would be as much bother as any other customer.

I think that’s most points answered.

OP posts:
DaisyDooley · Today 07:57

I must be terribly old fashioned but I think if they are sensible kids -why not? It’s a busy place so unlikely they will get kidnapped, they have ‘distraction’ and each other. What age do posters think yo7 can leave kids to start getting independence?
DH used to get the train every morning to prep school from 8 yrs old.
I could think of 100 other examples. Why are we so ridiculously protective ?
Not everyone has a village, family etc to just help with ‘childcare’.

LiquoriceAllsorts2 · Today 07:58

Outtaxed · Today 07:54

I didn’t say it was or wasn’t the law.

Each to their own and their own priorities though.

Your comment comes off as horribly judgemental. By your priorities you are suggesting that those who think it’s ok don’t prioritise their children.

in my view prioritising the needs of my children means both looking after them and allowing them to appropriately develop which includes introducing independence. The exact timing of this independence will differ based on the individual child but people who follow a different timeline to you are not caring about their children less than you or are not prioritising them.

JassyRadlett · Today 07:59

Outtaxed · Today 07:54

I didn’t say it was or wasn’t the law.

Each to their own and their own priorities though.

You did, actually - by saying "could not be left". Absent physical barriers, the only other reason someone cannot, rather than should not, is the law.

You also omitted some key bits about lengths of time. Regardless, the link didn't back up your statement.

justkeepswimminginalake · Today 07:59

YesIReallyDidOK · Today 07:52

There are multiple reasons why a business wouldn't allow children to be unsupervised on their premises. She really needs to be asking them if they will allow it and accept it if it's a no.

I’m really torn on asking because I don’t want it to sound like I’m looking for supervision for them because I’m not. I’m expecting them to be about as much bother as if I showed up to a cafe with a friend. Maybe I’d explain I had an Apple Watch to be contacted on so they know I’m nearby and contactable for the boys.

OP posts:
kirinm · Today 08:00

How dramatic are these responses?! They’ll be moving to secondary next year and then what? Depending on how well they behave and how much you trust them to behave, I don’t see it as a massive issue.

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