To think some online dating SA victims need to take more responsibility for their choices?

[Iatethelastbiscuit]

Last night I watched a bbc documentary about the high number of sexual assaults that occur on dates from app dating sites like Tinder. It’s horrific obviously and I’m not victim blaming here but some of these young women will chat to a guy for a few days then invite him over to their house or go to his house for a date. In the doc there was a lot of talk about how apps can keep women safe (annoyingly they kept saying “keep people safe” when we all know it’s women who are at risk), suggesting the apps do stuff like age verification and run background checks on every member. Never once was it mentioned that it might be a good idea if women took a bit of responsibility for their own safety. Eg. Some basic safety tips like meet in a public place, don’t invite a total stranger over to your house etc. The fact that all the women who were sexually assaulted in this doc had done this was quietly ignored. Are people so paranoid of looking like they’re victim-blaming these days that they’re ignoring the most basic safety rules?! No it’s not a woman’s fault if she’s assaulted but young women need to be learning how to stay safe. There will always be predators out there, that’s not going to magically change if an app brings in background checks (which won’t make a difference for most anyway). Women need to learn how to stay safe and the bbc needs to not be so woke that they’re too afraid to give women safety tips for fear of looking like they’re victim blaming!!

I did not at any point state that if my safe choices dont keep me safe then I am to blame nor did I suggest that any other woman is to blame for male behavior.

No one has said it’s the woman’s fault. I literally said ‘It's a tough one as people are right, men need to not rape, women shouldn't have to second guess their every move.’

Not sure what my user name has to do with it.

Well maybe they dont know if they are going to strange mens homes?

I cannot imagine as a mum of girls not saying to them about safety! It’s what a responsible parent does. Waiting for men to change is millennia old! It won’t happen! So yes, women need certain strategies and working antennae!

First rule: meet in a busy place, and don’t accept a lift anywhere! Always be around people. Book a reliable taxi home.

How many dates is one supposed to have before you can deem somebody safe?

People can know and still decide to do something against their better judgement. Otherwise we wouldn't have people smoke or cross the road on red light. Do we need BBC to tell people to wait for a little green man? I don't think so.
You don't know what circumstances led to these women inviting strangers over and how they may have been manipulated to do so. One thing we do know, is that women are being told how to keep themselves safe from cradle to grave and it makes very little difference to how safe we actually are. So, surely, something else needs to change.

Yeah, but if I leave my house unlocked and someone walks in and burgles it, my insurance company won’t pay out. As it’s my fault for not securing the property

SA is NEVER the fault of the victim, but it’s our job to protect ourselves (and our kids) from as much harm as possible

my son once said some older guy at a train station in Portugal made him feel uncomfortable and I moved him to the other side of me and scooted up the bench - I’m putting my son out of harms way.

likewise not putting myself in a situation I can’t control- like someone else’s home, or invite them to mine potentially creates a space where harm could happen

Or if dating etc, if it doesn’t work out, at least he won’t know your address and can’t stalk you etc etc

we perform complex risk assessments in all areas of our lives relating to our safety and security, dating and relationships are no different

people can be manipulative, they’re unpredictable and until you know them, you can’t just give people the benefit of the doubt.

this is possibly a side effect of SM and dating apps, information shared online IS NOT a substitute for actual experience and knowledge of a person.

There isn't just one answer to this issue. If we were talking about online safety and preventing people from being scammed, then we wouldn't just be saying "fraudsters shouldn't exist, we should teach people not to be scammers and increase policing of the internet". Of course we should also be teaching the public how to spot a scammer and the steps involved in keeping yourself safe online, that's not victim blaming. Victim blaming is when you make someone feel ashamed that they got scammed, not teaching them how to keep themselves safer.

I think it's no different to preventing people (women and men, mostly women obvs) from getting sexually assaulted. Teach everyone how to keep themselves safer, whilst also increasing policing and convictions for SA, and changing attitudes around SA.

Actually there is public messaging regarding both smoking and road safety.

Making safe choices does statistically change how safe we are. Thats why there are campaigns.

Clearly things should change. But unless that change is the elimination of men, then women do have to make safe choices. And thats what I teach my daughters. There is no moral high ground when you dead.

This is predominantly a site for parents

people who care about their kids

they will hear the message about being responsible for their safety on numerous occasions

the sorts of people making decisions like going to a stranger’s home etc, DONT always have a supportive and caring family background

my DIL had an extremely challenging upbringing and there are conversations I’ve had with her have been eye opening for me. I know I’m not her mum, but with love and concern for her, I’ve spoken to her about some of the situations she’s been in and she’s got a completely new perspective as a result.

if kids don’t feel they’re important/loved or that they matter, they don’t think about their personal safety

Agreed. But apparently we women need to keep our mouths shut and not advise each other about safety because that’s victim blaming.

Advising anyone on risk assessment is not victim blaming @nomas . Saying that women need to manage and be responsible for men's behaviour and when they fail in that endeavour, they have failed to keep themselves safe - well, that is victim blaming.

Saying that women need to manage and be responsible for men's behaviour and when they fail in that endeavour, they have failed to keep themselves safe

I don’t think anyone has said that though? It’s a straw man.

Surprisingly quite a few people seem to overlook this. Particularly young women who, like young people in general, tend to have an " it can't happen to me" attitude.

I think any woman will try to take sensible precautions and I have definitely tried to impart personal safety advice to DD.

This is a very victim blaming thread though- the title suggests the victims are also partially responsible, as well as their attackers. It reminds me of a woman I met doing jury service, who was very proud to have acquitted a guy charged with rape, because the woman had agreed to go home with him and you could never be 100% sure she didn't equally consent to everything else that happened.

No wonder convictions for rape are so low.

Isn't that what is being said here? If you don't tell your friends where you are meeting a man, don't meet in a public place, walk down the wrong road, walk too late at night, have too many drinks, get in a car with the wrong policeman - you, as a woman, have failed to keep yourself safe because you were attacked / assaulted / raped / abducted? So, you haven't managed the behaviour of the man adequately enough because by doing what should be normal life activities you have put yourself in the way of a man who is unable to behave normally and decently and therefore failed to keep yourself safe?

You are being purposefully obtuse.

Do you not risk-assess everything else you do?
Do you lock your door at night?
Do you look before stepping out into traffic?
Are you careful regarding potential online scams?
Do you leave your bag unattended?

Do you invite total strangers into your own home?

Seeing as we can't ban men from existing, nor can we identify who may possibly cause us harm is it not common sense to take steps to at least try to protect yourself??

That's not how I read the thread, if it was, I would disagree with that view.

I read the thread more in the vein that @montysmaw does, that we can't eliminate or curfew men so we have to rely on ourselves as women to keep ourselves safe. As montysmaw says "There is no moral high ground when you're dead."

I'm not going to lose my life clinging to a principle that says a man shouldn't kill me therefore he won't.

It does.
Men get sexually assaulted, raped and murdered too.

@MargoLivebetter You minimise the risk! I don’t want my DDs getting in the car of a stranger (we tell this to kids), be alone with men they haven’t sussed out by being in a busy place first and developed strategies to keap as safe as possible.

We know some men are appalling but they aren’t changing as a species any time soon. So women need good antennae and strategies. It’s not blaming women but taking care is a good thing. Expecting these men to see the light is a fools errand!

I agree, there was a woman on a group I'm
on who asked if it was ok to let a man pick her up for the first date in his car, apparently it’s ok because he has a “respectful job” so not only giving a stranger your address but also getting into a car with him? (She deleted the post when it didn’t go her way so god knows if she actually went through with it, she had a child as well)

@nomas and @MeetMeOnTheCorner neither would I risk my life and I don't have a principle to cling to here. Like I already said I have told my DD everything I can about keeping her wits about her and ensuring that she treats every man she does not know as a potential murder / rapist / attacker. BUT I would never say that a woman who turned down the wrong road, in good faith invited someone back to her house, who forgot to tell her friends she was meeting a date etc. was in anyway to blame because she was attacked / assaulted / raped.

I believe that as long as there is the acceptance that women have somehow failed because a man has attacked / assaulted / raped them - we are refusing to hold those responsible for the harm to proper account.

yes @Paganpentacle by other men!

BUT I would never say that a woman who turned down the wrong road, in good faith invited someone back to her house, who forgot to tell her friends she was meeting a date etc. was in anyway to blame because she was attacked / assaulted / raped.

I think we’re in agreement. I genuinely don’t think anyone on this thread is saying that, unless I’m being naive.

That is pretty much what a lot to people seem to be saying - we all have to be take responsibility for avoiding being raped. The logical extension of that is that if we are raped, it’s because we didn’t take sufficient care.

Yes, surely if he'd only realised rape is bad, he'd have stopped right away.