To think some online dating SA victims need to take more responsibility for their choices?

[Iatethelastbiscuit]

Last night I watched a bbc documentary about the high number of sexual assaults that occur on dates from app dating sites like Tinder. It’s horrific obviously and I’m not victim blaming here but some of these young women will chat to a guy for a few days then invite him over to their house or go to his house for a date. In the doc there was a lot of talk about how apps can keep women safe (annoyingly they kept saying “keep people safe” when we all know it’s women who are at risk), suggesting the apps do stuff like age verification and run background checks on every member. Never once was it mentioned that it might be a good idea if women took a bit of responsibility for their own safety. Eg. Some basic safety tips like meet in a public place, don’t invite a total stranger over to your house etc. The fact that all the women who were sexually assaulted in this doc had done this was quietly ignored. Are people so paranoid of looking like they’re victim-blaming these days that they’re ignoring the most basic safety rules?! No it’s not a woman’s fault if she’s assaulted but young women need to be learning how to stay safe. There will always be predators out there, that’s not going to magically change if an app brings in background checks (which won’t make a difference for most anyway). Women need to learn how to stay safe and the bbc needs to not be so woke that they’re too afraid to give women safety tips for fear of looking like they’re victim blaming!!

Thing is Op, yes it's foolish to choose to be alone but by your logic women need to practice being safer and removing the risk from men abusing them which is absurd. If we all live like that where do we draw the line and have to just trust men we don't know? And to what detriment? Do we no longer accept emergency help from men, even professionals? What about being alone with men we don't know in non romantic settings? For example, having tradesmen in or in my job I work late on occasion for high pressure jobs and can be anywhere and need to get taxis / drive late sometimes. What do I do then? Or if God forbid something happened to someone in those situations because they're not agreeing to being on a date or meeting a man for leisure are they somehow more worthy of being a victim? Men are responsible for themselves.

I would add OP, due to your title, that most women blame themselves to some degree for being raped, they will examine their own actions over and over again, and it could stay with them for the rest of their lives, so how much more do you actually want from them?

Sorry but as a guy I find the stats of male sexual violence against women appalling and despair at my own sex.

Women should be free to enjoy the same freedoms as men without fear. The goal must be to eradicate male violence against women. Blaming a woman for being assaulted because she wanted to spend the night with a man is the wrong approach.

@ooeygooeychewy so if a woman lacks common sense, then she is somehow foolishly partially responsible for assault / attack / rape / abduction?

I do not disagree that across all aspects of life, risk analysis is necessary. Clearly some people will be better equipped with both intelligence and good role models / teachers to conduct that risk analysis, be it about pulling out at a junction in your car or the time that you walk your dog at night. However, someone else's crime is never the responsibility of another person, least of all the victim.

To think some online dating SA victims need to take more responsibility for their choices?

No.

Fucking no.

Men need to take more responsibility for their sadistic actions and fetishes. Men need to take more responsibility for calling out their sexist, misogynist, creepy and rapey friends/family/colleagues/acquaintances. The police need to take more responsibility when dealing with reports of sexual assaults and rapes. The CPS need to take more responsibility when charging SA suspects.

I’m fucking sick to death of violence against women being turned into a woman’s problem and responsibility. Sick to fucking death of it!

No but I'd feel foolish as I didn't think it was rapidly getting dark and I could have chosen a different route with better lighting. Of course I could have got assaulted on the other route. I do tend to go on walks without thinking it could be dangerous which of course it could be.

FWIW, I would not think you should feel foolish, I would think you were a woman going about your ordinary daily business of walking your dog against whom a crime had been committed. I would not think you should have chosen a different route or that you went on a dangerous walk. I'd have thought you were an innocent person against whom an awful crime was perpetrated, not someone who should feel foolish for simply conducting their own life.

The gutless wonder who posted this goady thread is the one who should be taking more responsibility, i.e not taking a new username.

Fucking loathsome, victim-blaming shite.

A very uncomfortable thread title.

But I would feel foolish as the other route would have been safer and as I would rather not be assaulted it would seem sensible to take that route. Doesn't make any difference to what the attacker has done, they are guilty but I also know they will more than likely get away with it which is seriously annoying.

What if you were raped at 530pm in December whilst walking your dog, or walking home from work. FFS women should be able to walk around in the dark, rapists need to be procescuted!

Well, not taking a stranger back to your home is one example. Not drinking alcohol in social situations is another. Not bringing an unrelated male to live in your home with your children. Being aware of red flags, and having strong boundaries, too.

As someone who suffered CSA, and then abusive relationships and multiple rapes as a teenager, in part due to having poor boundaries and self-destructive behaviour thanks to the CSA, I absolutely understand a potential victim can't eliminate risk, and that it's not the victim's fault, ever. But there are things that can reduce risk.

And going home with a strange man, often while inebriated, in this porn-soaked society where men are entitled, and rough and dangerous sex has become the norm, is taking an unnecessary risk.

men don’t change because women tell them too. This continual mantra is not useful to women. We know a minority of men are not going to change and wishing they would is for the birds.

"Yeah, but... my insurance company won't pay out. As it's my fault for not securing the property."

So, the insurance company is effectively saying "the risk is obvious, you should have recognised the risk and you should have taken steps to minimise the risk." What's your point, exactly?

So why are women ‘foolish’ if you acknowledge that rape can happen at any point?

Similarly violent men know that what they are doing is a crime and is against societal norms but they do it anyway. Do we just not mention that it would be really great if they didn’t rape, assault and murder women because they know or should we explicitly say it and try to educate it out of them?

I will ask again - all those mothers who think that telling their daughters what to do will actually minimise risk - if your daughter then gets attacked and didn’t take all of those precautions, are you thinking that it’s partly their fault?

Because there is an overwhelming sense of men being bad for raping but any sympathy for the victim hinges on how careful they were to avoid being raped.

We have not moved on from the ‘well she was asking for it, wearing that short skirt’ attitude back in the day.

It is so fucking depressing that people still think this way and are happy to admit it.

I wanted to kill myself after it happened to me. I couldn’t tell anyone because I blamed myself and thought everyone would blame me because I went to his house (not for the first time) and he plied me with drink.

I self harmed for years and it affected how I lived my life for so long.

I guess it’s almost good to know that I did the right thing by not telling anyone. As awful as it was, the judgement from others would have made things worse.

@Anarchy99 I’m so sorry that happened to you. It affects you for so long afterwards doesn’t it? Just to tell you that I believe you, I don’t blame you, I hear you.

I agree. I have found the attitudes in this thread both horrifying and upsetting. I cannot believe these attitudes still exist and I have found it very upsetting too.

No.

I have taught my children both how to minimise risk of any harm where possible, but should they get hurt by another human - even after making a choice that was foolish - I wouldn't consider it their fault, because ultimately the reason they were hurt is because someone else chose to hurt them.

I'm sorry that you've struggled with worrying you could be seen as being 'to blame'. I know how that feels; I once had a therapist imply it was my fault I was sexually abused as a child because I froze/fawned for months instead of disclosing, and I always felt my mother blamed me to a certain extent too. It's absolutely soul-destroying.

But you're not to blame. You could've made different choices that night, and it might not have happened, sure...but ultimately the only reason it happened was because he chose to hurt you. The blame begins and ends with him.

I think it's possible to acknowledge you can and should try to minimise risk (I know I do, probably to an extent that most people wouldn't), but that the responsibility and blame always lies with the perpetrator, because ultimately you (general you, not you specifically) can't eliminate risk, and you won't always make the right decisions - but you don't deserve to be hurt even if you do make a risky choice.

@Catza When you are brining up girls, you absolutely teach them about trying to stay safe! If any poster is upset by this, they need to get into the real world. When DD1 started at university, even her hall of residence advised about safety at night and where they should not go!

Last evening dd was shouted at aggressively by a drug addict who needed a light. He was openly preparing his drugs in the kids playground near her flat. Men are definitely the problem but the police do nothing and these people are among us and asserting they just “need to change” is ludicrous. Dd reported his behaviour to the police but they said, effectively, too bad. What did she expect them to do? By the time they got there he would probably have moved! This was 6.30 pm. Police indifference is part of the problem! But what about his parents? Do we blame them for having an disgustingly aggressive son who uses drugs? In the meantime all girls must be told about staying as safe as possible. We cannot wait for men to change because after centuries of evidence, it won’t happen!

(Sorry I ended up having a super busy day yesterday so only coming back to this thread now). Yes this is exactly what I’m saying. There’s the ideal that ignores the reality - we try and teach men not to be rapists and if we succeeded in that then there would be no reason to give women safety tips (which is NOT the same as victim blaming). Women could be free to invite any hot stranger they want round their house without fear of assault. But that’s just not the reality is it? We’ve been trying to teach men not to rape women for quite a while now and it doesn’t seem to be working. It’s already an abhorrent crime that is not in any way socially acceptable, even among most men. Unfortunately we need to be doing both things at once - recognising the reality- that there are and likely will always be men who rape women, and educating boys about consent/assault/how to treat girls/porn/how toxic the manosphere is etc early. This may help with the problem but it won’t eradicate it. Most men who rape know what they’re doing is wrong and don’t care. I have a young daughter, she’s a green belt kick boxer (advanced) having trained since she was 4. I want her to go into the world at least knowing how to defend herself (I know it’s not a fail safe, but it’s something). I’m teaching her to be assertive, that she never has to be polite to a man who makes her feel uncomfortable, but I’m also teaching her about the reality of the world - there are predators out there and she needs to follow some basic safety rules to stay safe. It’s an unfortunate symptom of our shitty society, but it’s not victim blaming. I’d much rather teach my daughter not to invite strangers round to her house than be too afraid to mention it for fear of victim blaming, then she gets assaulted. But it’s ok cos at least I didn’t “victim blame”!

Thank you 🙏 I had hoped that attitudes like this were a thing of the past

I can only think that people like to think it won’t happen to them because they have been sensible and that it only happens to the foolish ones. I guess they don’t want to think it could happen to anyone at any time no matter what the circumstances.

Well, you think wrong, then. I know it can happen to anyone because it's happened to me more than once, but I still teach my children to minimise risk wherever possible, precisely because I know how devastating and life-altering rape is - and even if that risk can't ever be eliminated altogether, reducing it is better than nothing.

You miss the point. The majority of sexual assaults don’t happen to women being ‘foolish’ enough to invite randomers back to their homes.

It just makes you and the majority of posters on here think they are immune to the risk because they aren’t ‘foolish’ like other women. Someone with martial arts training is no safer than someone without.

All these kind of threads to is show how many women are naive enough to think it won’t happen to them because they are too sensible and also ensure that victims keep it to themselves for fear of being judged.

That to me is the ultimate victim blaming - thinking it won’t happen if you do x, y and z and that if you are too stupid to do those things, well of course it’s terrible but you shouldn’t have done whatever in the first place.

Again, if it happened to your Dd (god forbid, obviously) and they hadn’t been ‘sensible’ , you would presumably judge them on some level?