Do you agree with school absence fines?

[Dreamyseptember]

I honestly don’t have a strong opinion either way. I work term time so I can only go away in the school holidays anyway, plus I’ve never been keen on mine missing school.

However, I can totally understand why for many people they want to go on holiday during term time. A family holiday can be a magical experience, visiting somewhere new, spending proper time together, experiencing new things, getting away from the daily grind. And for many this would be unaffordable in the school holidays. The other thing is that parents can’t always get the time off work.

I do think it’s important for children to attend school, I know they missing large chunks at school can mean them falling behind, miss out on learning as well as time with friends.

But tbh, I know people whose children missing large chunks school frequently anyway. Any sniffle, tired day, weather too hot or too cold and the parents are ringing them on sick. There are other children who attend 100% of the time and is one week away for a family holiday, possibly at a time of year when learning is wrapping up anyway, going to really make that much difference.

When I was at school in the 80s/90s it was quite normal for children to disappear for 2 weeks for a holiday abroad and no one batted an eyelid.

I’m sure that there are lots of arguments either way but do you think it’s right and fair that parents are fined for taking their children on holiday during term time?

Yabu - the fines are correct
Yanbu - it should be the parents decision

They're not. It's more expensive at busy times. That's business!

If this is set in the school acceptance ( yes we accept a place and we will adhere to the schools conditions) then the parents have been warned.
If they are then unrolled the parents will need to find a place .
The same parents who thought missing school was a good idea to go on holiday.

We don’t have absence fines and I agree with that, I think it’s overreaching.

Hard disagree. I went to a C of E primary school in the 90s. I rarely remember a naughty child. We were taught rules and disapline though. Kids were far better behaved in those days. Nothing like today what you see in some primary schools today. You would go to the headmasters head office for good work and I can remember very occasionally a child would be sent to the head masters office for misbehaving.

I have seen parents turning up at 15.20 in a dirty dressing gown to collect their kids! I don't remember that at all in the 90s.

On the whole no, I don’t like that level of state intervention into a parental decision BUT people are morons and can’t be trusted, they take the piss so I can see why they’re necessary.

Supply and demand... prices go up IN ORDER TO price out would be holidaymakers because there are not enough flights and hotels for everyone who wants to go in the summer (should prices be "reasonable"). We'd all be in a queue to buy holidays - like ticketmaster for concerts.

The fines are to stop us lower middle class, always guilty, angst ridden parents from taking kids out.

Poor folks (I dragged up from there through education - ironically) can't afford holidays. Rich folk pay the fine (or holiday when you want tax).

What impact do you see exactly?? These children in primary will go onto high school. How do you know what path a child will go down? How are you aware of the kids grades? No child will sudden fall behind in 5 days. Give over!

How are all our kids doing since covid? Will they fail sats? Will they not take high school exams? Honestly my child is doing perfectly fine despite covid.

You are right about one thing people like me will continue to go on holiday mean while... more serious issues fail to go unoticed within schools.

I know it’s not the 80s or the 90s but school attendance isn’t any better now than it was then.

Therefore fines don’t work.

Since Covid school attendance isn’t any at an all time low.

Probably the same teachers moaning as the ones who moan about having to come in on GCSE day or deal with a results query for a child...

Personally I have no issue sorting out some work for a pupil. I plan my lessons in advance so just tell them what the lesson topic is, then email them a work sheet or exam question and ask them to make notes. Takes me a couple of minutes.

What other disincentives could there be? Teachers jobs are hard enough without having to spend extra time with children who have missed stuff owing to going on holiday.
If there were no fines, attendance would be even lower I fear….

But where is the evidence for that?

I can’t find a single statistic to say that fines have improved attendance, in fact school attendance is at an all time low with record fines being issued.

Kids failing to grasp a concept once they get back as they’re missed the teaching input for the week before. A lot of units of work link up so if one part is missed another is more difficult. Friendships change very quickly especially at younger ages and a week out while their friends are still at school can cause things to shift. Getting back into routines takes time each time they’re off. Missing friends parties, missing school trips, practices for plays, the list is endless!!

No I strongly disagree with the fines. I don’t think the education system should be concerned with parental decisions unless there are genuine safeguarding concerns. For absence I believe the trigger should be much higher, for example less than 75% attendance triggers investigation etc.
I do believe the whole attendance focus is a bit of a scapegoat, our education system is below where it should be compared to other developed countries, results are mediocre, students are the most unhappy in Europe. They are trying to assign the blame somewhere. They’ve chosen attendance. It’s a bit like the NHS trying to blame people who do not attend their appointments for the entire system failing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyepw0w752o

All these things simply do not take place within the space of 5 days. Please do not exaggerate.

I’m not exaggerating, I’m basing it off 25 years working in schools!! There is a cumulative effect! 1 weeks holiday here, a week off with chicken pox there, a few days off with cold.
But we’ll agree to disagree as you’re never going to convince me that a child needs a term time holiday more than that week at school!!

I suppose I do feel that the fines still disincentivise some people from taking term time holidays - and so if there were no fines, there’d probably be even more children missing school.
There is evidence that attendance impacts attainment - which is why the government pressurises schools on attendance in the first place.
I think the schools should get the money from the fines though- and I’m not sure they do…..
I also think that unauthorised absences shoud be considered as part of secondary school allocations if a school is over subscribed. That would be a disincentive in some areas for sure…….
Lots of children don’t have holidays abroad - so that is not a justification. If all they’re going to do ‘abroad’ is jump in and out of a pool and eat beige food at an AI buffet, then it’s hardly a cultural or educational experience that warrants missing school. Sorry - cynical by experience and not just making assumptions.

Where teachers get the idea that no learning can possibly happen outside of a classroom not under the direction of a teacher I have no idea, but it's utterly ludicrous.

How do they think the little 4 year olds that turn up at reception learned to talk and walk? Do people never learn another fact after they leave school?

Again focusing on the wrong people. A child who is encouraged to go to school, had parents who do value education and have a good overall attendance are not going to fall behind that much because of a week off. We have regularly taken ours out, not every year but a lot of them. The eldest have had exceptional GCSEs, a levels and one has gone onto a prestigious uni where they are achieving high grades. I had the experience of an army child where we would move regularly, having to join classes at different times of the year, time off for the move etc. I have achieved a lot educationally

The main focus needs to be those who miss days regularly, who are consistently late etc. Why are we not having discussions over them? Why aren't their parents elbeing held to the same standards as those who take their children out for a week. Why is the government not doing more to support children with school avoidance issues?

I do agree that attendance affects attainment as there is clear evidence for that. But since fines were introduced, there has been no improvement in attendance.

Is it the children who are being taken out of school for a week that are suffering or is it the children who are missing school regularly because of chaotic lifestyles, SEN, poor mental health etc. Fines do nothing to address either.

Anecdotally since fines were introduced all I hear about is term time holidays. It’s almost as though the government have put a price on missing school, and it’s a price that many are willing to pay. Of course the government would never admit that it was a mistake.

A holiday doesn’t have to be a cultural experience to be a valuable and fulfilling experience for a child.

That doesn’t mean to say that everyone should be taking their children out of school, and they don’t. I wouldn’t take mine out of school but it isn’t the fines that deter me.

It is recognised that children attending school regularly have better educational outcomes and are safer overall.

Just because someone says they are taking their kids out on holiday during term time it doesn’t mean they are. The parents could be hiding a domestic violence situation to allow bruises to heal, they could be organising a trip abroad to subject that child to an operation or forced marriage. I grew up in a time where truancy was accepted and the kids would all hang around the town centre causing trouble and getting into petty criminality.

These rules are to try and protect against all of those things, not just to prevent holidays.

True, logistically it's a nightmare, I was mostly just venting on the travel side because the pricing feels daylight robbery for families! You’re stuck in a catch-22 anyway, where you either feed into the supply and demand by paying peak prices or take them out in term time and get fined.

Give them work to do while they are on holiday as opposed to conducting catch up lessons when they return.

We need to re-envisage the concept of home study beyond the 5 minutes a day of homework at which it currently stands in many state primaries (once reading is stripped out - which should be independently conducted anyway).

Yes, caution should be taken with implementation with regards to teacher workloads, but record hfh fines and zero progress indicates that a new approach is required.

And what’s to stop abusive parents doing these things during the half term holidays, Easter break or the 6 week summer holidays? if the schools want to be custodians of children’s safety that should apply 100% of the time, not only when it works around the term timetable.

if a teacher is teaching a particular subject that week and three parents have decided they want to take their child out to go on holidays, when they return the teacher has to then go back and teach those three children a weeks worth of lessons taking the teacher away from teaching the rest of the class what they should be learning the following week. Now imagine if that happened every week. There is not enough staff and resources for this. All schools have had cuts to the budgets. I don’t understand how parents are not getting this.
it’s the holiday companies that should be held responsible for hiking the prices so much during school holidays