Do you agree with school absence fines?

[Dreamyseptember]

I honestly don’t have a strong opinion either way. I work term time so I can only go away in the school holidays anyway, plus I’ve never been keen on mine missing school.

However, I can totally understand why for many people they want to go on holiday during term time. A family holiday can be a magical experience, visiting somewhere new, spending proper time together, experiencing new things, getting away from the daily grind. And for many this would be unaffordable in the school holidays. The other thing is that parents can’t always get the time off work.

I do think it’s important for children to attend school, I know they missing large chunks at school can mean them falling behind, miss out on learning as well as time with friends.

But tbh, I know people whose children missing large chunks school frequently anyway. Any sniffle, tired day, weather too hot or too cold and the parents are ringing them on sick. There are other children who attend 100% of the time and is one week away for a family holiday, possibly at a time of year when learning is wrapping up anyway, going to really make that much difference.

When I was at school in the 80s/90s it was quite normal for children to disappear for 2 weeks for a holiday abroad and no one batted an eyelid.

I’m sure that there are lots of arguments either way but do you think it’s right and fair that parents are fined for taking their children on holiday during term time?

Yabu - the fines are correct
Yanbu - it should be the parents decision

Option 3 here - there shouldn't be fines, and it shouldn't be the parents' decision. It just shouldn't be allowed at all. Fine people for something and they start to regard it as a service they can pay for - "oh well, we can just pay the fine". They need to understand that it's not permitted, end of. A child who is taken out of school gets behind, and then the teacher has to get them caught up, to the detriment of the other kids.

When I was at school in the eighties and nineties, it was made clear that was the rule. One family did it one time, and the kid was expelled. Private school, of course. Shame state schools don't have the same power.

I think parents are right to feel let down and betrayed, as you put. I had a discussion or two with other parents during 2020/21 about it. Like you wrote, something doesn’t add up. It can’t be a case of only the dates pupils miss when it’s school sanctioned or Government sanctioned don’t matter!

I lived in Wales during Covid, and out of all the UK nations, schools were closed for the longest. Welsh Labour kowtowing to teaching unions was a big part of that, and dare I say it, wanting to be different to what England was doing. There was a ridiculous example when they were allowing schools to return for the last few weeks of term in 2020 before the summer holidays. The Labour fools in Cardiff Bay insisted it was too early for schools to return the same time as in England. They then allowed Welsh schools to reopen about 3 weeks later at the end of June, and said the school term would be extended. From what I reliably heard, they didn’t consult with the councils! Most school staff are only employed on term time contracts and they had no power to make the workers work beyond the school term dates. Therefore, Welsh pupils missed out.

No. I think it’s misguided. The problem is school refusal and consistent bad attendance , not a cheap week in Spain once a year.

I agree that fines have done nothing but put a price on the absence.

But it would be absolutely mental to expel a child for going on holiday, beyond mental and completely illogical.

The whole point of school is supposed to be about giving children an enriching and valuable education.

The independent school DS attended was very relaxed about days off in term time. So maybe it's not that simple.

I don't agree with holiday fines. They make the government look like they are doing something about attendance but in reality do very little in regard to addressing the main causes of persistent absence.

Fining families whose children have very good (over 97%) attendance but choose to go on holiday for a week only turns parents against schools. It also does not address the actual attendance issues. Apart from that 5 days, that child attends school usually on time every other day.

What really needs the focus is persistent absence. Which believe it or not is not solved by fines. Very very few children who are persistently absent are swanning off on holiday every other week. Most persistently absent children have either one or several of the following; Special educational needs (usually unmet SEN needs), complex medical needs, poor physical health, poor mental health, parents with poor mental health and not enough support, parents with poor physical health and not enough support, parents with addiction issues (drugs/ alcohol/ gambling), parents with unsupported sen needs. Fining solves none of these factors in persistent absence. It requires social services and a myriad of other teams to work together to support a child to be able to attend school.

In the case of many SEN pupils it requires the LA to actually grant an EHPC, find a suitable placement that is able to actually meet needs and fund it adequately then the school to be able to recruit someone able to support that child. At this moment in time, finding a suitable placement that is willing and able to meet needs, has space and the LA is willing to fund is like looking for rocking horse poo.

In the case of poor mental health it requires co-ordination and working with mental health services which for both children and adults are in a dire state of affairs.

In the case of addicted parents it requires work with addiction services, which once again are in a dire state.

Addressing absence due to poor physical health requires our NHS services to run properly and in some cases taking active preventative medical approaches is needed which our NHS is not great at, it's more a reactionary service.

Tackling persistent absence requires, time, resources, multi agency joined up thinking and a lot of money. I would much prefer the level of resources and money going into the fining system be used to actually fund actual boots on the ground support for persistent absence.

Brilliant post!!!

I loathe them. They’re pointless. Rich parents who can already afford abroad holidays, Disney several times a year, skiing…they will just pay it and consider it a “holiday expense”. Normal parents who don’t have the cash to go abroad in the first place will never risk it because they can’t afford it, so it’s off to wales for the summer kids!
The people it’s meant to target: regular truants, kids who leave the school grounds, kids who are off sick every Friday just because: this parents don’t care and don’t pay fines….

100%

No, because

1. Parents should have more rights over their kids than the state
2. Majority of kids at my DC school see their grandparents or other family
3. The days the kids miss are usually sitting doing nothing or watching a movie. Not very educational. I should fine them for not doing any teaching.

I have no skin in the game because my children go to private school and therefore I won’t be/can’t be fined, but also I don’t take them out anyway.

However, I think the most valid point I’ve read was the one about the bigger picture. There are families where every slight sniffle means a day off, when really it’s because the parents can’t be bothered to get up and out, etc etc. I think there should be a holistic view of the entire picture - the reality is that most pupils won’t attain 100% attendance. If they are good attendees generally, I think some slack should be cut. By the same token, I think there should be financial and court action taken against repeat offenders whose attendance is horrific with no genuine reason (long term health condition etc) regardless of whether they use that time off to go on holiday.

I think there should be sanctions for taking children out of school, but imposing hefty fines is not the right appraisal as it disadvantages those on lower incomes. It is rare that my son misses any school (he's about to start Year 10) and in secondary has only missed a few days when he had Covid and 2 half days for family funerals. I know I am lucky, as he is rarely ill, but his school is so intensive that I feel anxious about him missing school - and he doesn't like missing school either. I place a huge amount of importance on his education and wouldn't dream of taking him out of school without a valid reason.

There should be some discretion - we asked for 2 days off termtime to attend a family wedding abroad which was brought forward due to grooms mum having terminal cancer and my girls being flower girls and also last chance for DH to see his auntie who he was close to. We were told no. We went anyway. But to me there is a vast difference between this and 2 weeks on the Costa del sol.

I think its sad. I'm in my late 40s and I rember at school after work was done we would get free time. My own older children had golden time on a Friday afternoon. It gave them something to look forward to. My younger children don't get that.

I think music, art.,people Give children a break from the academic stuff. Whilst still learning. I feel like there's no balance. Theres no reward. It feels like children can't be children. Anymore.

Secondary school is awful. Especially from year 10. Obviously I'm only talking from my own children's experience. I just feel going to school should mot lead to mental health, self harm and suicide attempts.

If I was educated enough my children would be home educated.

Regarding holidays I think it should be how it used to be 10 days of a year like it used to be. Children from poorer families don't have enough opportunities as it is . Why take holidays away as well.

YANBU. I understand why the rules exist, because some children do have a lot of time off and fall behind. But I don’t think a week or two away should be treated the same as persistent poor attendance.
A family holiday is often the only time people get to properly switch off and spend time together. School holiday prices are ridiculous, and some parents have no choice about when they can take annual leave.
I also remember plenty of people going away during term time in the 80s and 90s. A child with good attendance missing a week for a family holiday is unlikely to suffer much, whereas children who miss school regularly for other reasons are a different issue.

I wouldn’t be so sure about that. My private school wrote last September to say they now had to report absences to the local authority. I’ve got one in private and one in state and the private school is much stricter than the state school. Their view is that the holidays are so long there is zero excuse for absence for holiday. While they state school wishes you well they won’t authorise.

They report but the LA can’t take action.

Oh that’s interesting. They kept that bit quiet in their comms!

The school are governed by the law, they are not just making stuff up according to how they feel on the day.

During term time the school are mandated to know where all registered children are during school hours, in the holidays they are not. I’ve seen the head mistress get in the car and personally drive to knock on the door of a child who hadn’t been seen for a day and no one had heard from the parents as to why they weren’t in school. Staff take this very seriously.

Of course things could happen during the holidays but if staff have developed a strong bond with the children the children will often talk about what’s been going on whilst not at school and potentially disclose something worrying. That’s why Covid and lockdown was so terrible for keeping kids safe.

I don’t agree at all - it should definitely be up to the parents, it is too much state intervention. It doesn’t matter where they go or why it needs to be during term time. We did it twice, because we needed more time than the holidays allowed (special, long haul trips), but my opinion doesn’t change based on destination or reason - school is only a part of a well rounded education.

I dont know how I feel about them. Weve just got one. Taken 1 DC out of school for 5 days. First offence in 8 years and we were fined. I cant go into the specifics as it would be outing but there was a valid reason we could not go term time but because no one was dying, school didn't care.

I think what is annoying me about getting the fines is DCs attendance, despite the 5 days off was still above the 94% attendance the school expect. My DC still has much higher attendance than many of his friends who seem to be poorly a lot but I am not talking genuine illness - more coughs and colds. Or even ones that just cba and parents allow them to stay off. Their attendance is in the 80% bracket with no fines.

To me, that feels unfair. I do think something should be done for repeat offenders though, including ones who just skip school etc. There's got to be a line drawn somewhere.

I think that if there is a genuine reason for holidays in term time such as a family wedding or parents cannot get the time off work in school holidays then the authorities should be mindful of that and parents shouldn't have to pay a fine unless they persist in taking the children out of school for holidays. I know there are people like my ex-partner who due to his job is allocated certain times of the year for annual leave and maybe once every few years gets the summer or Xmas break off. Most of the time when I was at school my parents took time off during the 6 weeks so we had holidays then and even if I did go on holiday during term time it was when I was in primary school and only for a couple of days as I wanted to be in school once I was at home.

Obviously this.

I don’t think many teachers would claim that learning is solely attributable to the classroom. This would be ridiculous.

It’s about the disruption to the teacher, class, school, admin etc rather than whether or not the child learns more in a tribal village on the side of a mountain or the classroom.

if we all had term time holidays, the school would be in chaos. Therefore, it’s not fair.

Obviously, if family live aboard and there is a reason that you have to see them in term time, that’s different etc.

Everyone with this type of post is missing the point!!!

it’s not about what the child misses. It’s about the disruption to the school. Most (not every) teachers argue this point.

it’s not fair on everyone else.

Children test in top 0.5% so zero impact on academics here. We took ours out for a week longer at Half Term as the place we wanted to do wasn't workable in a week. Got fined.
My friends kids at private school did the same trip as part of the curriculum. It was a wholly educational trip. Still got fined. Not approved.

Was previously highly active member of the PTA and really pushed for equal financing of all extra curricular (am essentially one of the parents the Govt wants to improve state education rather than go private). Approach taken by the school not approving holiday meant I have stopped donating time and money to the school. Just focussing on my two now.