Crash on A66 that killed two police officers and 5 others…

[bookworm1982]

Am I correct that the other victims were 5 lads travelling in one car the wrong way up the motorway? EXACTLY the same as the 5 Irish lads who died a few days ago travelling the wrong way up a motorway too? Surely not twice in a week? Is there some sort of mental social media thing going on, telling kids to drive up the wrong way? Like a dare? Just cannot believe it happened once, let alone twice. Just devastating.

Yep.

I knew several traveller lads in YOIs guilty of serious sex offences who just couldn't see what the problem was. Their 'girlfriends' were 12-14 and they were 17-19 but that's fine to them, they were gonna marry them probably. Or not, if they weren't traveller victims.

Couldn't read or write, self-harming off the scale because they were trying to cause as much disruption to the estate as possible.' I'm an Irish traveller in an English prison, this is racism'.

But the prevailing attitude in the UK is to 'reduce disproportionality' in criminal justice for the traveller community.

Anyone who works in youth offending knows prison is the absolute last resort as we saw recently with the Fordingbridge rapists.

The public were outraged but the initial sentences were absolutely in line in what happens every week in youth courts, the difference here was the public knew about it and there was a backlash.

I can't state the original judge went easy because of fear of criminalising traveller boys as it happens all the time with rapist boys but I'm sure it was at least in his mind. And the reports of low IQ definitely influenced his decision but when that's a majority of the traveller community, we have to make a line between IQ/ND and responsibility.

Any initiatives designed to 'reduce disproportionality' at the point the person has already committed numerous crimes will only serve to positively discriminate in favour of minority groups which is not going to help at all.

One adult Irish traveller rapist I knew, who raped a 12 year old traveller babysitting his kids and then threw her out of the van naked was only brought to attention because it happened in Ireland and the poor girl got pregnant and had to travel to England for a termination. While his family spirited him away to a traveller site in England for months.

He had all of his female family members turn up to court singing 'if tomorrow never comes' as he was sentenced.

Yes. They arrived in a workplace where the adults were the majority and they had to learn to behave themselves.

Now they are swearing at teachers and misbehaving at school. There's simply no consequences. Teachers are told to make their lessons more interesting to stop the kids from misbehaving and being rude.

Many don't arrive in the workplace now until they are 21+. They then lecture their employers about their rights and expectations. They want a minimum of 30k, WFH 3 days a week and Friday afternoons off.
Can you imagine them saying that to a 1980s employer?

You dislike the word thug? Well i dislike thugs who drive down the wrong side of the road killing people.

What would you prefer? Scrotes, toerags? Or maybe misunderstood lovable rascals as the family seem to portraying them?

Thug is actually polite. I know what I'd rather call them.

I firmly believe the lack of part time jobs for teenagers is a large part of the reason teens are less mature.
I think you are looking at this from your average teenager. These particular teenagers wouldn’t have worked in paid employment if it was available. There parents never worked, or extended family.
Once again. I’m not talking about specifically travelling people. I am talking about the class of people in general who are work shy.

OK, I can't say I understood all that completely. But my question was - given lots of different ethnicities still have British citizenship, do we differentiate their punishments on the basis of their race/ ethnic group? Or not? Do we deport minorities for crimes that white Brits only get jail time for? Even if the minorities have British citizenship?

Two police officers killed - that is awful. If these lads want to kill themselves, that’s their stupidity. But to pretty much commit manslaughter is awful.

The only work would be ripping people off

It was made a case after the killing of PC Harper by Irish travellers.

Which only applied to the driver of the vehicle which dragged him to his death.

Not the other occupants who laughed in court and mocked his family who are still up for early release in a few months but Andy Burnham has pledged to try and stop it.

We'll see if it's successful.

Paid tribute . You'd just stfu wouldn’t you and keep your head down in shame.

Pallister park /Brambles farm though. Makes traveler sites seem beacons of good behaviour in comparison.

If travellers want to fight each other; let them take their shirts off and get on with it.

As Phil Lynot said in Boys are Back in Town,

Friday night they'll be dressed to kill
Down at Dino's bar and grill
The drink will flow, and blood will spill
And if the boys wanna fight, you better let 'em

Just leave the rest of us out of it.

Your perspective still seems to be
-it’s not their fault because..
other people are racist
other people don’t understand them
other people are mean
therefore if these delightful scamps kill them, they are just as to blame?

What year was this? It is the law in Ireland that all children must attend school. If you wish to homeschool you have to be approved by social services for an assessment and the board of education. They’d never assess a traveller as eligible for home education under 15.
My daughter is sitting her leaving certificate, there is at least 10 travellers in her school year. The children allowance payment is also connected to the child in school, so without school stamp, you won’t get a payment.
Most Irish travellers attend school.

What's the problem with the word 'thug'?

@Puffinsandcoffee or any other poster, I asked if anyone had a link to support the assertion now being made that these lads were not travellers. Please point it out if it's been posted and I missed it.

TBF if the police attend with facial recognition technology it could be quite a fruitful day for them.

Not if their delightful family “honour” them by wearing face coverings..

That OP was teaching literacy in a YOI - young offenders institution. A prison for children 15-17 and young adults 18-21.

Under 18s are legally entitled and obliged to have some education in prison. They can refuse and many do but for many, it's their first opportunity to receive education and learn. Even just basic literacy.

Over 18s can refuse too but most don't. Even if it's just to get out of their cells.

It's not paid for by councils.

I have no idea if she or the young man are travellers. But by vulnerable I meant she reads as being lonely, she possibly thought a baby could plug that gap and picked the worse kind of young man to conceive with. One who no doubt bragged about being a father and ‘my son’ for five minutes then did eff all to help raise him

And now she is getting abuse for that decision.

She presents as loving her baby a lot but is pretty much still alone to care for him

I didnt know that PC Andrew Harpers killers were from the travelling community. It does make sense though.

The coverage of them leaving court at the original trial showed that they were obviously of low intelligence. There is a strong correlation between low intelligence/ poor education and criminality.

No that's definitely not my perspective. It is their fault they died and that the police died too.

I don't have any links that prove they're not travellers. I have no idea if they're travellers or not.

I dislike the word "thug" because it lacks nuance. It's reductive and doesn't tell us anything about the details / degrees of criminality etc.

That’s heartbreaking.
Obviously it is their choice to steal a car but otoh did they ever have a chance.
I grew up in a very working class area. I’d have loved to see big business offer work experience to the youths in school to make them see there is more to work experience than sweeping the local salons hair up.
I didn’t know fancy jobs existed as a teenager. Things are changing, opportunities are growing but it’s still tough when they do graduate without any internships etc.

All five now have individual balloon releases, one with fireworks and smoke cannons too.

They were all mates surely one for them all would suffice if it has to be done

It would be great if police officers from other forces could volunteer some time when the funerals of all seven deceased take place - for slightly different reasons.

For the police funerals, it would mean that Cleveland officers could mourn their colleagues and for the other funerals, they can seize all the quad bikes - every single one.

If only mass balloon releases were illegal. Wouldn't it be great if their stupid event was spoilt.

They had many chances to get an education but their community doesn't prize and indeed despises education. So their access to "fancy" jobs was blocked from the start because of their own families' values.

Not everyone can get a fancy job. That is just life. People have to do the less fancy jobs such as sweeping up hair in salons. What realistically can a big business offer a teenager with no qualifications or skills beyond making coffees and sweeping up? They can't let them loose on their customers or spreadsheets