AIBU to think empty first class should be opened on crowded trains?

[boredsoscrollingonMNagain]

I was on a long journey this weekend , It was a 5 and a half hour journey with one change.

our first train was massively delayed , meaning we missed our next one. But , we coped and it’s all done now and we will get compensated .

However , I was really cross at this:

We had reserved seats on both trains. We don’t travel on trains with no reserved seats as my eldest is autistic and gets distressed with nowhere to sit. He prefers a certain seat, so we always try for that, but the main thing is he has a seat. The train was taken from 9 to 4 carriages so all reservations cancelled and this first train was a 2 hr journey for us. My husband wasn’t with us and we had large cases so I was stressed ! My eldest was obviously worried - luckily we found seats and all was ok . But , when the train came in I saw a carriage empty and my worry was getting these cases on alone and having no space , so I went to the empty carriage and was turned away because it was first class. We got on fine in the end, thanks to the help of lovely strangers and we got seats right next to first class and I could see in and it said all seats were available- not reserved - and maybe 2 people in the whole carriage. For the whole journey , the other carriages were like sardines - it was awful. They announced they couldn’t get the refreshment trolley out because it was so busy ( also it was during a heatwave ) . First class was empty. I saw a family - including a woman with a tiny baby in a carrier and young children, turfed out. I saw many families struggling to find places to sit.

Now , I understand if you have paid for first class and the carriage was full of people who hadn’t , you would be angry . I agree if you have paid first class you should be able to sit in it. But if it’s empty , why were people turfed out when everyone’s reserved seats were cancelled ? I would understand if first class was busy , so all were reserved and they kept that carriage for that reason - it costs a lot . I also would understand if maybe they usually had 2 first class carriages ( I don’t know if they do ) , took one off , so kept all the first class seats for those with first class tickets , but on a first come first served basis. But to have them all free , the whole journey , with lots of people - families coming back from holiday - who reserved seats for a long journey and lost them , standing and struggling - but then keep it empty and leave people standing , and actively turn people holding babies in arms away - I found this disgusting !

Just to add - this isn’t about me wanting to go in first class , we had seats , we were ok and I did offer my seat up too.

They didn’t have to announce it , a few people walked in there and were turned away - it was empty. They could have just said yes stay here . They could have used their discretion - not sent a woman with a baby strapped to her and a toddler to try and navigate a busy train. They could have said , if someone does get on with first class ticket then you will have to move. I’m sure there are systems where people buy a seat on the train so that is then logged so no one could then get that seat.

A lot keep saying “ they could have upgraded “ but a lot of people don’t have that money. I certainly did not have a spare £90 to do it.

Very unusual take that seems not to account for the passage of time. British Rail was privatised nearly 35 years ago, after a long period of deliberate pre-privatisation underinvestment. Of course their stock was not reflective of 2026 standards

Since that point the private TOCs have invested less than comparable state railways and in an incoherent manner - our railway is significantly behind where it would/could have been if income had gone into network/stock investment rather than shareholder/foreign investor payouts.

Totally agree. My tickets were certainly not cheap . If I was in first class and they moved someone in there so they could sit down on their journey , I wouldn’t care. I don’t think most decent people would .

What is assisted ? I have never heard of this ? I always worry on trains that even though we have booked seats , someone may be in them. My son loves the trains , he’s obsessed . But has a fear of having to stand because we once had to ( before I decided to never use a service that you can’t reserve seats on ) and it was so hot and busy. On a long journey he needs to put a movie on his phone or read a book … he can’t do that standing. So anything that could help would be a godsend .

I agree with this, and I’m someone who pays for first class. I’m autistic and can’t deal with loud noise in enclosed spaces, so I pay to avoid it where possible.

I feel like most people who use first class are mainly doing so because they want quiet. I’d actually rather see trains declassified but with more space and more quiet carriages. And — crucially — with guards who actually enforce the quiet rule.

It pisses me off no end when people in the quiet carriage are on video calls or having loud conversations. (And before anyone asks, yes I do ask people to stop, and sometimes I get abuse and sometimes they just refuse. I have no authority to make them, whereas a guard does. They’re quick enough to exert that authority when it’s someone sitting in first class without a first class ticket!)

Sorry for the rant! Back to the OP’s question - the train service in this country is diabolical. And it’s worse in extreme temperatures. I don’t want to see people suffering when there’s a way to stop that.

Except people very often refuse to move and can get abusive. Train staff have to deal with so much aggro every day - insults, assaults etc. If you want to sit in first class, pay for the upgrade.

If someone is ill or heavily pregnant or obviously physically disabled, the staff do their best but they can't just let anyone into First Class who demands it. Besides, the National Rail Terms of Carriage are quite explicit

Standard Class purchase grants the right to make a journey between specified stations, but no guarantee of a physical seat. Standing in designated areas is permitted if space allows, though prohibited in First Class carriages.

I know it doesn't seem fair if you are having to stand or struggling with pushchairs/children/luggage but those are the rules.

You can probably use passenger assistance if he is disabled. They would help find a seat. Google it and see if you are eligible.

On the train line I use regularly they DO declassify first class when the standard carriages are very overcrowded due to delays etc. Anyone with a first class ticket can then claim back the upgrade cost. The train manager will have decided not to do this for whatever reason.

In terms of the upgrade cost if you were over an hour late you can claim back 100% cost of the ticket including any upgrade. So if someone had the balance available to buy the upgrade on the train they could later claim the whole lot back anyway!

PS the vast majority of train lines allow the disabled rail card discount (for your son and you as his companion) to be discounted off the upgrade cost as well.

I'd be very annoyed if I paid for First Class and other people were fainting due to being packed like sardines in massively overcrowded standing-room-only carriages, rather than being allowed into my cooled carriage with its free seats..

The OP didn’t say people took other people’s seats. She said there were plenty of empty seats available.

I was not aware of this , so I will certainly keep it in mind for the future .

I had a whole other issue at the connecting station where I was told that I didn’t actually have any right to just get on the next train , even though I had missed the original train because of delays, because I had a split save ticket with Trainline and “ that’s what you get when you book tickets cheaply “ . I was told I had to just wait and see what the train manager said when they got there . It was the last train of the night so we had 2+ hours of uncertainty , not knowing if we would be stranded in a train station all night , until I spoke to the train manager ( who said that of course I could because I was covered and they had a duty of care to get me home ) .

Only if they give everyone with 1st class ticket a refund.

YABU

if they de-classify 1st class, you would have to open it to everyone and it would have to be a “free for all” as the rules for travel would be the same as a standard carriage- because it is no longer 1st class. I’d be seriously irritated if I’d paid for 1st class peace and quiet (often so I can work) and it became as busy as standard. Perhaps you mean more like an upgrade for some passengers? You can chose to upgrade on the train, if there are seats, so that was an option open to anyone who wanted to do so.

I think when you travel by train the rules are your ticket entitles you to travel but does not guarantee you a seat (I imagine it will be in the terms and conditions). There is the option to book a seat, but because you don’t pay for that it only applies to the train service you book it for. If booking guaranteed a seat, trains would only be able to carry as many passengers as there were seats, which is clearly not the case. Therefore, when booking it is probable that you are expected to understand that a ticket guarantees travel, it does not guarantee a seat, unless you are travelling on the specific train journey you booked.

Why? First class have their seats. Why care who uses the empty seats?

When people are upgraded in planes, Business Class passengers don’t demand refunds.

It is so vulgar and uncouth to think an empty seat is better than giving it to someone who doesn’t have one. It’s quite pathetic. .

There were seats available at that point in time but that doesn't mean people with first class tickets wouldn't be getting on at the getting stations.

The general sentiment is one of why should people who don’t pay the same price get a better carriage. It is not being said out of concern for passengers, not future first class and certainly not standard passengers.
It’s is a vulgar and tacky attitude.

Of course then you have the situation of who gets the available first class seats? Those who have been standing longest (think v long train journeys of hours duration), those who have children, those who have disabilities, those who happen to be closer to the first class section than others stuck at the back of a crowded train, those who feel most entitled? Can you imagine the fights that would break out, the risk to other passengers? I think it would turn very ugly very quickly and unfortunately, people iften can't be relied upon to 'do the right thing' and take a step back so someone more needy can have a seat. I see that on buses and the tube all the time. We see the ugly stories about flights where people attempt to bully others out of their seats 'because...' (insert reason). If there are 100 people standing and only 40 seats in first class, who gets them? Who decides?

My attitude is why should people who have paid for first class not get a seat because people who have paid only for standard class are sitting in them.

Why? Just curious

it’s quiet, spacious, better service.

I was in economy today as first class ticket was insane and I regretted my decision. It was packed, people are loud, it’s weird but families in first class actually try to keep their kids quiet and behaved, forget that in standard. “The Lads” drinking, singing…aaarrrgh…thankfully it was a quick journey

For gods sake what has happened to society? OP is entirely correct in that every single one of those first class tickets could have been booked, but why are we that pressed about the SEATS that aren’t being used if the train has been halved? If you’re annoyed about someone else sitting in your carriage (especially when you get refunded for it) then I hope you never have more pressing matters to worry about.

Nobody is saying that though? You’ve got your seat, sit in it. But when carriages and halved, and you get the declassified refund anyway, just let people be comfortable

Decades ago, as a London commuter, I always found train passengers to be polite and reasonable, despite being packed in like sardines. We flipped the pages of our broadsheets without encroaching on the person next to us. We didn't eat, or take phone calls. The most contact we had was a communal eyeroll when the service was delayed. We even managed to smoke without being rude. Women and older people quietly had seats offered and accepted with dignity. No one groomed themselves on the train, or chewed their nails. If there ever was an emergency, or a passenger in need, we became briefly human, helped out and sat down again, with mild embarrassed smiles. Space was at a premium and no one tried to monopolise it.

Nowadays people feel compelled to inflict themselves upon others. Smells, noise, alcohol, grooming, music, prosecco, phone calls. It's all so vulgar. The only people who don't feel compelled to talk are the mums ignoring their kids to go on their phones, who should talk, but don't (The exception to this are the performance parents). It's not the smells and sounds per se, it's the complete disregard for others and what they might want. Even in the "quiet" carriages, they don't shut up.

I pay extra to sit away from this and my heart sinks when they enter the carriage with their McDonalds and turn it into their sitting room, like no one else matters but them.

So if standard class if full and they have ditched your seat reservations what are they going to do if you go into 1`st class and wont move? Physically remove you?

If their cock up deprived you of your reserved seat they should be obliged to find you another, 1st class or not. I would have sat in first and they would have had to carry my dead weight out.