To think I only really have anger to get compliance from my children

[Summerslams]

Bracing myself here because I know I’m going to attract a certain amount of critical amount of critical comments here, but … I don’t seem to have any way of getting my children to comply with me without getting angry / raising my voice.

Yes, I’ve read the books. I’ve tried telling them what to do not what not to do (they ignore me) two choices (they refuse both) speaking firmly and authoritatively (I might as well be pleading) using praise (they like it but not always helpful in the moment.)

They are five and three. I know three especially can be a tricky age but I hate the fact all I really have at my disposal is anger. (I know I’m going to get ‘what are the consequences’ and if anyone can give me an effective consequence for a three year old I’m all ears!)

I have made them cry for three days in succession and would obviously rather prefer not to do so fir a fourth but I’m really struggling to manage them when they just bloody well ignore me nine times out of ten.

The calm, consistent thing doesn’t always work. For most of a term one of my DCs class came out about ten minutes late. They were told that if anybody spoke as they were packing up, the class would stay behind for ten minutes. The same couple of kids spoke. The teacher continued all through term. What was the point?

There needs to be consequences.

whether that’s taking the toy away, helping to tidy up after making a mess, time out on the bottom step or in a corner (this worked better for us) is up to you to decide in each situation. Then (and this is the important bit) you need to follow through. Every time. No, it’s not fun. Yes, you usually need to supervise and help with the tidying and supervise the time outs but the more consistent you are, the less it will need doing as they realise that you mean what you say.

I had a big moment with my then 7 year old which involved taking him home early from something that he’d very much been looking to for repeated bad behaviour and ignoring warnings. He was told that if he did it once more, he would be taken home. He did and so he was. 14 years later he still talks about that day!

It is so important to not threaten consequences that you don’t follow through with. They quickly learn that you don’t do what you say and they carry on regardless until you lose your shit. This will get less effective the more you do it too which is why it’s so important to figure out some alternatives.

Shouting is over rated. A low, quiet tone of voice, getting down to their level and looking them in the eye coupled with being disappointed with them rather than angry has always been more effective imo.

I’m not saying there’s a quick or easy fix but you really need to get on top of this while they’re still so young otherwise they will literally run rings around you as they older and bigger.

I calmly force them do so as I say. If I say 'no going in the bedroom' and they go in there, I will tell them sternly to get out. If they don't, I physically pick them up, remove them and there are consequences. Usually losing a privilege or item they value. So we're not going to the park because now I have to tidy up this room that you messed up.

Mummy didn't charge your car up because she was busy fixing the mess you made. Now you can't play with it today.

If they still continue, that's when backsides start getting smacked.

Unfortunately I do find this to be the case … I guess the issue is if they don’t care if they have to stay back then it isn’t a consequence.

I rarely if ever used anger. I never shouted at my kids except for the very occassiona l’stop that’ if they were doing something dangerous. It’s not in my nature and I was fortunate to have naturally chilled kids. However, I still had to manage things. I used to be extremely consistent, I’d try to never change some of our set rules unless there was a good reason. Computers were allowed for one hour a day. I had a timer. When I asked them to stop they had to stop within 5 mins (or closest save point) if they complained they weren’t allowed any computer time the next day and then if they further complained they were not allowed it for a week. I meant it and they knew that. So I only ever had to do the one day ban and I never once had to do the week long ban. There was no drama or shouting just a very clear and consistent consequence. I didn’t (often) randomly let them have extra time because it suited me. I didn’t give in to whinging either.
I also used time out which worked well. They would get a warning, then a short time out. Then a quick chat about what they could have done differently, if they needed to apologize or correct something.
I also used to try and make sure I had time where they had to play on their own and they had to leave me alone. It be for a couple of hours in the afternoon. They would have been out to preschool, school or for an outing but, if we were home in the afternoon, they had to occupy themselves for a good while. I think this helped them to play on their own and with each other. It was really good for me too, I had four kids under 6 and it could be quite full on at times. Those few hours to myself were amazing even if I did a few chores)
I made sure at other times I would give them my full attention. I’d properly play with them and make sure I wasn’t only halfheartedly doing it. I made sure I had loads of fun with them. I sounds a bit yummy mummy but it really worked for us.

I also liked doing a bit of role play where I’d ask the kids if you were in such and such a situation what would you do and get them to think about things. For example if a kid at school had stolen something from another kids we might have a chat about what might have motivated the kid to steal and what might he feel like etc. Again, it sounds yummy mummy but I think it worked well with my kids. We didn’t do that type of thing all the time but little by little I think these things help.

My kids are adults and are really close to each other and I wonder if some of that was because they were good at playing together even as little kids.

And this is where the skill comes in - picking the right consequence for each situation.

You can come up with all the excuses that you like, nothing will change. Or you could accept that many of us have been through this too and found different things that worked and really commit to giving them a go.

Are you getting enough time to yourself? I always struggled more when I felt I had no break from the relentlessness of young children.

DD1 is autistic so none of the traditional parenting techniques worked for her. Time-out resulted in 3 hour meltdowns!

It will get easier. What works for your eldest may be totally different to what works for your youngest. I kept DD2 in her nursery routine for all holidays except Christmas. I always planned at least one week of a ‘camp’ during the holidays for my eldest so both children were ‘away’ during the day.

It seems so overwhelming when you are in the thick of it. Are there GPs that could take the eldest for a day out?

Plan for your own alone time to recharge. We evolved to raise our children in large groups of adults; not one adult trying to do it alone.

Haha literally none but there isn’t anything I can do about that at the moment unfortunately!

Yes three is a tough age

Ok but one child playing with a toy and suddenly another child snatches it. Does child 1 really deserve to lose it? Does child 2 learn consequences when they aren't invested in playing with that toy? I mean if it works it works and that's great but with mine (and I have the same problem as OP) I can't help but think this will lead to bigger problems/growing resentment over time.

I used stopping. If they were fighting in the car, pull over and turn off the engine. Say nothing. Hold out. Eventually they will ask why you stopped. Then you can quietly say: Because you were fighting when I asked you to be calm. It's dangerous to drive if I am distracted by you fighting. You might get into trouble for being late for school/football practise/ you might miss the party/granny's Sunday roast, but I can't do anything about that. You can. If you are calm, I can drive.

I did this a few times before they got the message.

Same with things like refusing to put on shoes. I just sat in the hall, silent, until they said, 'What we doing?' Then I'd say, "The plan is to go to the shops and get some lovely fresh bread so we can have lunch. But we all need shoes for that."
Be pretty firm. If they are hungry, say: 'I know. That's why it's a good idea to get shoes on, so we can buy bread and have lunch.' But still don't budge.

If at home and fighting over a toy or what to watch on TV, it was taken away from them both and they went to different rooms to play alone quietly until they were prepared to play nicely. Up to them how long it took to knock on each other's door and find a solution, while I had a cup of tea.

I had fewer tantrums that way.

I was fairly soft, generally and preferred the kind of lengthy discussion that makes most people's hackles rise. But DS1, like his father, has a rigid stubbornness that pushed hard against authority when he was little, so I preferred to explore why they were making a fuss. That way you find out if shoes hurt or a jumper is prickly or they have a headache etc.

It doesn't work because you're giving up on it, my kids have thrown hours and hours long tantrums because they don't want to do what I'm asking. I could obviously at some point during the tantrum go "well this isn't working" and give up, but then that would have just put me in the position that you're in now, where your children ignore you and won't listen. Of course they're going to do that, they know it works.

The folding washing thing as an example, of course they're not going to respond well to it, that's sort of the whole point. They then realise that doing things like that means that they'll have to clean it up and they will eventually adjust their behaviour and not do it.

It will take hours, days, weeks, months for it to finally sink in and you will have a hellish time getting them to actually do these things, but it absolutely is possible.

In that instance, as long as I was sure the snatch had happened, and that Child 1 hadn;t been hogging a toy them both wanted turns on, I'd remove child two and say 'No snatching.' Return the toy to child 1 but explain popular toys need to be shared failry. Then set a timer for child 1 to play and hand over to child 2 when the timer sounds, so they both get a turn.

I have a three year old - I follow abanaturally on instagram and it is a great resource for helping manage behavior without shouting, but you have to give them the tools to behave well and rewards when they do - shouting and praise have the same value to a child because they are both forms of attention, and attention is what they're looking for.

Personally I cleared their bedroom and the lounge.

so bedroom was just beds and toys. At that age their clothes lived elsewhere (in my wardrobe). That way there was very limited stuff they could mess up. Big plastic box where the toys lived meant they could all be thrown in pretty fast.

it just reduced the stuff they could mess up of mine.

same with the lounge. Two sofas a tv and tv stand and the toys were in big plastic boxes and we got out one plastic box at a time.

(Other toys lived in plastic boxes in the spare room otherwise known as the office).

in order to get a different box out the box currently out had to be tidy.

no access to the kitchen unless I was in there doing something (rare). Baby gate across it (and mooching dog in there as well).

in summer free access to outside (again, garden largely toddler friendly).

the more you simply keep stuff away from them the less they can damage.

But what you described isn’t “fighting” it’s one child misbehaving. In your example give the toy back to the first child. Redirect the second to something else and potentially agree a time to switch over.

Taking the toy away works when they are an actually fighting over it, when they aren’t sharing nicely or you weren’t in the room and have no idea who was misbehaving.

I'll give that a go. Won't be long I'm sure 😩

Oh and don't forget that whatever consequence you give will probably make your life harder, not just theirs. It's one of those things where short term pain leads to long term gain. I know you're obviously trying but you really need to take some of this advice and get on top of it, you really do not want to have 15 year olds who have no respect for you and ignore what you say.

If your children are fighting over toys leave them to it, it’s important life skills. They’ll work it out. If they are doing vindictive things like you describe then they are simply asking for attention from you. Sit down with them, give them a cuddle, ask them why they are making your jobs take longer as it’ll give you less time to spend with them. If all else fails get them out of the house to burn off some energy.

I agree OP. Some kids just don't really respond to authority. My dd1 doesn't. It just escalated things to the point where you're the one who ends up feeling foolish. But she isn't a bad kid. She doesn't generally want to upset people or do wrong. If she's given a chance to calm down she'll apologise and put things right of her own accord. But if she's dysregulated it just becomes a battle of wills and it's almost like she's trying to make you angry so she can reset. Time out worked better than most things but more just as a circuit breaker, and sometimes I'd have to physically carry her, which doesn't feel great. I think i posted on here a decade ago something very similar to you. She's 14 now, and kind of the same, but not a hooligan. And dd2 is the opposite and won't say boo to a goose. Raised them exactly the same. Dd1 does have AuDHD diagnoses.

Do you/they have a clear routine for they day? Do they get out and get some decent exercise, do you have set times through the day where you spend time playing with them, do you have stories and songs for them to listen to in the car, do you set up activities for them to do if you need to do something else, do you make the things you want them to do like get their shoes on into a race or a game, do you get them to help you with things even if those things then take more time?

Bored children find things to entertain themselves, and the chances are those things won't be things you want them to do. The more positive attention you give them and the more you do with them the more they will want that and so the more likely they will be good to get it.

Don't leave them to fight over toys, play with the toys with them. Do less cleaning and more playing with your kids. The more effort you put in the more you will get out in good behaviour, I can promise you that.

Problem with removing child 2 is they just keep going back until the whole thing dissolves into absolute hysterics for everyone. I have to admit I’m kind of resigned to this; it’s been going on well over a year and shows no signs of stopping.

Hysterics as in laughing? Or crying?

If crying, yes they will cry, they will scream and they will absolutely kick off. Let them. You still need to do it if you're ever getting out of this situation.

Right but if behaviour hasn’t changed, what’s the point?

With things like tantrums, or getting out of bed, coming out of time out etc children learn that they just need to be more persistent and determined than you and they will get what they want.

Even if you just inconsistently give in sometimes, they know it is worth pushing and pushing the boundary because sometimes it works and you give in.

So at first when you start really firmly holding a boundary, there will be more push back and tantrums. But over time they learn that you mean it and you will get less.

For my children the consequences would sometimes be 'natural' (eg if you keep messing about at bedtime you will run out of time for a bedtime story or if you can't behave at this fun place we will leave) and sometimes imposed (eg no TV time, go and sit on the step).
Also I would offer the reward first - 'if you are really good in the shop and hold my hand nicely, we will buy a treat on the way out' - and then if they started playing up I would remind them 'remember you really want to get that treat'.

Two of mine are very feral strong willed so they needed absolute boundaries and strong enforcement!